Schoolgirls having to wear shorts under their skirts

I had a huge post typed out but it went poof.

My thoughts are, there are sooo many creeps and sexual predators about now, that people feel little girls and women should be covered up, for their own good, as being dressed modestly puts them at less risk of being preyed on.

Why is unwanted sexual attention and behaviour from men, and their lack of self control not being addressed?
At least 1 in 20 women in England and Wales has been a victim of sexual crime. Wearing shorts under skirts isn't going to fix this.

There is a clear issue with sexual harassment in our culture and society. Any action by boys falling under sexual harassment or bullying should of course be dealt with. It isn’t, though, is it? And all too often the same old stereotypes fall into play - he didn’t mean it, it was just a joke, he’s only being mean because he likes you, if you weren’t so uptight you wouldn’t mind, and so on.

There is also a problem with cultural stereotypes and attitudes affecting children’s choices re: what they wear.

Children like to fit in (generalisation). They like to find their tribe, and be a part of it. This will have an effect on clothes choices. Which is why, when there is a choice of skirts or trousers in school uniform, girls will often choose skirts.

My dd1wears trousers to school. Always has. Much more practical - she has severe ASD and learning difficulties, and wouldn’t be able to cope (motor skills wise) with tights and a skirt. She would:

end up with tights halfway between knee and crotch, and all twisted.

end up with her skirt tucked into her tights/pants after going to the toilet, or worse, not move it out of the way sufficiently when going to the toilet

not be aware of times when she might need to moderate her actions to avoid being exposed (windy days, for eg)

not b aware of social norms, and so not think about sitting “nicely” etc (ok for a small child, she’s now 13 and going through puberty)

and so on.

These are just a few of the things which affect younger girls, right from a time when even an NT child with no motor skills issues would struggle, wrt clothes choices, but they are expected to put up with modifying their behaviour in the interests of looking “girly” or dressing how society expects them to dress.

My dd2 has to wear a skirt as her school uniform. She hates it. Impractical - can’t run without looking undignified. Can’t climb high on the climbing wall at break in case boys look up her skirt. Couldnt use the play equipment when younger because comments were made (by boys and girls) about seeing pants etc. No useful pockets to stow anything away (swatch/fob for moving around school, money for charity days/bake sales etc, a list of what she needs to remember, a tissue when she has a cold, etc - all things boys can manage so much more easily and freely with their clothing allowance). And don’t get her started on the knock on choice of footwear, and the differences between girl/boy School shoes! She often comments on how dd1’s school is much more sensible with uniform choices than her school is (trousers, as above - girls are allowed to wear skirts but none do - and “a sensible closed toe shoe in predominantly blue, black or brown”) as she has permanently cold feet most o the year, and often wet too. Bonkers.

I prefer wearing skirts and dresses to be honest, and always have done. I don't think girls (or boys) should be banned from wearing them.

Same here, I rarely wear trousers. Actually I think I only wear trousers (and skin tight leggings at that) in the gym.
I don’t find them at all comfortable.

Wearing shorts under skirts was not the done thing when I was growing up later 80's early 90s where i was. No-one did it.

I can't say it's a universal thing at DD2 primary now - so many girls needing to be told they should do it and so many bemused parents asking what they mean and where to get some.

It's certainly something that is increasing becoming normal – I wonder if it’s a regional thing that's spreading.

This isn’t new.

I used to wear shorts under my skirts 30 years ago it was just more practical. Every girl did. We were the first year to wear trousers so we ended with the option.

Both primary schools and the secondary my children have attended have allowed girls to wear either trousers or skirts.

Despite me buying both options for DD1 all of primary and offering to do so for secondary she prefers skirts and only wears skirts. I've no idea why though she always wears opaque tights as well.

Thing is 25 years ago at secondary I didn’t have to suffer upshot but still got harassed by boys with body parts and bra straps or bands being pinged – I don’t think that behaviour was ever punished or stamped down on by school staff we were left to deal with it ourselves.

So I agree it’s a behavioural problem – one that’s changed form with technology.

DD2 often wear trousers however summer dresses in hot weather are also liked last summer she got very upset and would only wear dresses with over shorts which I then had to buy – I also tried girl boxers she could wear over pants.

While this wasn’t official school policy turned out some staff and other pupils were ones telling off for not having modesty shorts on under her dress and over her pants– she was 8 and a normal none developed 8 and was essential being shamed into feeling she had to ware extra clothing.

I think its just sensible to wear shorts under a skirt, why would ypu want everyone to see yur underwear and not everyone wants to see your underwear.
I have put shorts under my dd's skirt since she was in reception, she
does handstands and cartwheels non stop, I wouldnt encourage her to stand in the middle of the playground holding her skirt up showing everyone her underwear so I dont want her doing the same upside down.
When would boys be allowed to just flash their underwear at girls and female teachers by bending down, doing handstands, standing on chair etc and not be told to cover up?

DD would happily wear just the shorts all summer, and treats the skirt as a sort of optional frill on the top. She somewhat pities the boys as they only have the option of long trousers all year (secondary).

Shorts (plus indecently short flippy skirt) are a better option for cycling to school than the flappy trousers her school seems so keen to promote, or the 'at least knee length skirt' that no one beyond year 7 wears.

micha

I expect you are correct

However I do think if uniform manufacturers actually met with children when designing their trousers and the sizing/style/look wa sbt so ridiculous more girls might wear them.

I don't know who or what they are designed to be worn by but it isn't junior school/high school girls

Ereshkigal I have heard people say this before. I don’t like them but I’m interested to understand what makes them your preference?

I just don't find fitted trousers as comfortable as a skirt. I wear leggings on the bottom under short dresses if it's cold. Climate is the good old UK.

At my son's school they now allow girls to wear trousers - he left a while ago but I often see pupils from his school and have not seen any of the girls wearing trousers

I think we are so far down the gender stereotype path that skirts are no longer an option for girls in the culture of a school setting.

We moved recently and both new schools, on primary, one secondary, have the option of skirts or trousers. Both my dd’s picked trousers- their previous schools hadn’t allowed them and they were delighted.

Their first day at school and both were the only females in trousers. Primary dd wanted a skirt, but by the time a weekend cane round for me to buy one, all the girls in her class had switched to trousers too.

Secondary dd- bearing in mind this is a massive school of about 3000 pupils, is still the only female- identifying girl wearing trousers. She regularly has issues with teachers and students assuming she’s male. The only other biological girl she knows that wears trousers is now identifying as male.

It seems that if you want people to know you’re female, you wear a skirt. If you wear trousers, people assume male.

So i don’t think the unilateral wearing of skirts by schoolgirls is a free choice or preference. It is very much influenced by our new gender culture and social pressures.

When I was in school we were made to wear skirts and i hated it. The difference in uniforms was insulting to me because the boys got to wear warm clothes whilst we shivered but looked feminine.

In PE lessons we worn polo neck tops and gym knickers which I will forever blame for my hatred of sports. The boys were allowed to wear trousers and polo tops. I would have engaged far more of I wasn’t worried about my legs being shaved, my period starting or showing off my arse to my peers.

I would personally ban all segregated uniforms. Boys and girls would be allowed to wear what they wanted so if boys wanted to wear a skirt they could, but girls would be allowed to wear skirts or trousers and PE uniforms would never be anything less than shorts and t shirt.

Kinda ironic how unifirm is supposed to hide the fact people have bodies underneath yet ridiculous restrictions mean the trousers most likely to fit and be practical are banned and the skirts are too short by the time they fit around the waist.

And of course there's the humiliation of see through shirts

Skirts are not the problem.

The problem is that schools are not taking a zero tolerance approach to sexual harassment in schools. I would like to see discipline for the boys who are caught doing this and education on respect for everyone. Why are girls feeling that they have to wear shorts to protect themselves rather than feeling that they can report such behaviour to staff and will be listened to?

I detest skirts and never wear them. We had to campaign to get dd’s primary school to allow trousers for girls. Much more practical in the playground.
As a feminist, I’d like to point out the phrase “Who wears the trousers” as an indication of who holds the power in a situation. Skirts are demeaning, a symbol of powerlessness, and allow easier access to a woman’s genitals for abuse, upskirting photos, whatever.

Culottes should really be an option.

One really obvious step in the right direction would be for schools to stop talking about what pupils wear: no uniforms, no guidelines, no rules about appearance. They could put all the time and energy they waste policing people's hairstyle choices, shoe logos, etc, into teaching kids not to be sexist and abusive.

I think that teachers lowering themselves to be concerned about skirt length/ makeup/ hair dye/ etc, sets an appalling example to students. Teachers should be concerned with helping kids to be kind and compassionate, and above all with inspiring kids to be excited about learning.

Countries without uniform, like the Netherlands and Germany, for example, have pupils with a more mature attitude to clothes, in my experience.

And they say that women don't need women only toilets...if someone is likely to do that in broad daylight what photography will they attempt in the toilets

It's a major reason why many phones make a sound when a pic is taken even when the phone itself is on mute.

I am female and do prefer trousers so I’m struggling to picture feeling more comfortable in a skirt. I accept that it is personal preference.

Banning skirts seems to me to be a first step on the road to requiring girls to wear "modest" clothing

I wholeheartedly disagree. I hate a ‘slippery slope’ argument. It’s what held back civil liberties like marriage equality for years.

I'd love to be all glam and wear dresses but in reality I'm really messy and hard on clothes.

I wear dresses 95% of the time. My DDs choose dresses or skirts for preference all the time. They find trousers very uncomfortable. Why should their preferences be taken away as choices? Those suggesting trousers only on this thread are presumably those who prefer to wear trousers. Not everybody does.

Removing skirts as an option does seem to signal that boys/men can't be controlled and so it's up to girls/women to prevent them from being able to sexually harass them.

I wouldn't wear a skirt or dress unless forced to, but I'm aware that some (most?) girls/women prefer them. Uniform should always have a choice of trousers or skirt, and much more needs to be done to change the atmosphere in schools so that sexually harassing other students is seen as unacceptable by all.

As a PP says boys today have unparalleled access to porn on the web and yet they still target their peers for non-consensual photos. To my mind this confirms the long standing feminist belief that this behaviour is not driven by sexual desire but instead by a desire to harass and humiliate.

I went to an all girls' school but if I heard of this at my child's school in the future I'd be raging and demanding the perpetrators be firmly punished so any other boys with smart ideas knows how seriously it is taken. Girls shouldn't have to limit their behaviour or dress to prevent boys misbehaving, let's put the blame firmly back where it belongs - on the boys taking photos and the culture that permits it.

Banning skirts seems to me to be a first step on the road to requiring girls to wear "modest" clothing.