Schoolgirls having to wear shorts under their skirts

I saw it in the times (yesterday or the day before)

It is on Women's hour now.

Thanks Clara for putting down your thoughts on this. Interesting to read your perspective and especially the thought that uniform policy backfires. I take your point about the rules, but of course without them (and even with them some of the time) uniform ceases to be well, uniform!

Also interested that you think that this leads to less practical/sensible choices. Are you thinking about the uniform itself there? or other (not school uniform) choices around dress and appearance that people make as a result of what you suggest are the "gendered" norms that uniform wearing perpetuates?

@claraschu yes and yes.

We probably both suffer from confirmation bias to some extent, purplesky, so neither one of us will be convinced by the other's second hand experiences.

However, when I decided to bring up my kids in the UK, I thought uniforms were a great idea, but the reality has been very different, especially for girls. My unscientific observation is that English girls are forced into a stereotype more than their US and European cousins, and that the uniforms are a part of that.

Have you taught in a non uniformed school in a country that doesn't usually have uniforms?

@claraschu that is the opposite of my experience. Teaching 20 years.

LouiseCollins The uniforms force very young kids to dress in a gendered way. In general girls choose skirts for the first few years in primary school, because that is the prevailing fashion for girls, and you have to choose between 2 or 3 possible outfits. If you look at kindergarten kids in Europe and much of the USA, there is far less conformity- boys and girls in t-shirts and soft trousers of all colours and cuts.

The reason that uniforms force people to think about clothes is that the school is always telling kids how to dress, making rules and judgements. When schools simply stop mentioning clothes altogether, they become less of a way to rebel or to assert yourself, and can just be a natural part of a growing person's identity.

My children and their friends, in a big city in the South of England, wear far more makeup, far less practical clothing (like warm coats and shoes) and have much worse judgement and less confidence about their appearance, than my niece and nephew and their friends in NYC, or all of our friends in Germany and the Netherlands. The foreign schools do not ever comment on students' appearance, and as a result, it is less of an issue.

I know that the theory of uniforms is that everyone just wears the same thing so no one can tell your income, and thinking about appearances doesn't interfere with learning. The reality I have observed (3 kids of 22, 19, and 16) is that uniform policy backfires and creates a culture which is overly obsessed with appearance and lacking in common sense.

@LouiseCollins28 yes secondary. Very mixed intake and over 1,000 pupils.

The girls prefer to wear skirts. The son my son attends is similar and most girls wear skirts then.

Course it's treating them unfavourably.

Trying to squeeze particularly female bodies at various stages of puberty one a few select clothing items then constantly deciding they are too short, too tight, or forcing girls to keep blazers on in blistering heat because you can see their bra through their shirt is pretty unfavourable tbh.

Sorry, I disagree Clara. I don't see how uniforms "force everyone to think about clothes all the time" What makes pupils think less about clothes than wearing the same style of uniform each day? I can't see how wearing ones own clothes results in less thought required or less pressure being put on children?

Nor do I see how "UK uniforms are sexist" TBH. Uniforms vary widely from school to school, for it to be sexist it would have to be "less favourable" to one sex than the other, and I'm not seeing how that is the case with school uniform?
Louise

Completely agree clara

Most opinions of non unifirm are based on mufti days where kids have one day every few months to show off their clothes.

When I went to college no one cared they just wore jeans and t shirts/vest tops/hoodys

If UK schools stopped policing clothes, or even mentioning clothes at all, after about 20 years girls' choice of clothes would become apparent. It would probably be similar to most other Western non-uniformed countries' clothes choice- nondescript jeans and t-shirts for most, with some kids who enjoy experimenting more in various unpredictable ways.

UK uniforms are sexist, and also force everyone to think about clothes all the time, even though they are supposed to prevent this.

@peicesofpurplesky
Interesting that a majority of girls choose a skirt when offered a choice. Is that a Secondary school you teach in?

The school I teach in allows skirts or trousers for girls - the majority choose to wear skirts (with tights in winter).

I prefer it when the girls wear shorts underneath as it is difficult not to get an eyeful otherwise - a girl sits cross legged on the floor, comfortably on a chair, walking up stairs etc. The girls aren't asked to - they wear them because they want to. Conversations I have had said gym shorts and a skirt in summer is comfortable and cooler.

So SOME men/teens may take photos but the vast majority don't - if a girl wishes to wear a skirt ... she should.

I wonder if there are men out there that find trousers uncomfortable, of if it is a female brain thing?

I know a few men who only ever wear shorts, even in winter, unless they absolutely have to wear trousers, so I'd assume so.
They can be restrictive if they are of the tight fit design.

Schools tend not to bother making changes unless they've had a shitty ofsted inspection which has flagged up serious concerns. This should be one of the things asked by Ofsted inspectors when they visit schools, if girls feel safe in class, if they've been subject to any sex based violence, if the school dealt with it appropriately.

I'm with you Lass! always been keener to wear a skirt. I wear trousers very infrequently, and this has been the case since school days for me. Skirts can certainly be comfortable, IMO

Given that both women and men wore trousers initially (I believe that they were invented by nomadic horse-riding peoples) and that so many men in so many nations still wear skirts, I have trouble seeing 'gender' here beyond what is prescribed in the UK and other European (except for Scotland and some Orthodox nations) and similar colonial nations. In other words, skirts for women and tousers for men is a gender construct that is particular to particular geographical regions. I don't think it is denying women and girls anything essentially feminine or particular to womanhood to cease the wearing or skirts. This is not to say that there should not be other reasons for this not being a choice, but I don't think it can be seen as girls 'giving up' something about 'girlhood', because this is utterly constructed.

I wonder if there are men out there that find trousers uncomfortable, of if it is a female brain thing?

A female brain thing? Did you mean to be so patronising to those posters who said they don't find trousers comfortable? It is just our silly female brain.

I don't find trousers comfortable. I've only ever had thrush and cystitis when wearing trousers.

We always default to make. That's what gender neutral means!

Of course they are a male default. You don't like skirts and dresses fine. Others do - stop inventing spurious reasons why trousers are so much better. And stop ignoring those women and girls who don't find trousers comfortable

Never said i don’t like skirts and dresses. I never said trousers are so much better.

If we are going to force young girls to wear shorts under skirts, what difference does it make that trousers become the default uniform. At least we will remove the implication that it is the girls fault that they get upskirted. If you find trousers uncomfortable, then shorts probably are too. Seeing as they’re just shorter versions.

Skirts/shorts, whatever. It still boils down to policing girls clothes.

If a school wanted to make its uniform skirts only, then that is fine with me. If they have good reason why skirts are the better choice for children, especially primary who may want to tun, play and cartwheel.

I wonder if there are men out there that find trousers uncomfortable, of if it is a female brain thing?

The question that should be asked, every single time a school comes up with an absurd uniform policy like this, is "Why don't you have sufficiently robust anti-bullying policies to deal with the perpetrators? Why aren't you suspending them? Why aren't you having PHSE lessons covering the fact that voyeurism is a crime*, and that any sexual activity without consent (in fact, without enthusiastic and equal participation) is wrong? Why aren't you suspending the perpetrators?"

• I realise upskirting isn't specifically a crime at the moment, though hopefully the law will change on that one.

These are two separate issues, of course upskirt photos and any such behaviour should be banned and curbed.

Then the separate issue of trousers vs skirts, if you look at a non school setting, kids playing in the playground etc most of the older kids who would have chosen what they wear will be wearing trousers. If skirts were practical and comfortable surely more girls would opt to wear them outside of school as well?