Being wary of men because of your experience of male violence

@TheGoldenBough I’m sorry that happened to you and that your mum was so unsupportive.

for all the posters who have experienced abuse at the hands of men.

Me too, Quentin. Me too

golden that's very similar to my story
I'm quite damaged I think.

I was assaulted by a sports instructor when I was 10. I wasn't alone, he was quite open about it in front of the kids (all around 9-14yrs of age).

He talked about the older girls' boobs and how careful he had to be demonstrating the activity with them so that he didn't hurt them.

He used to demonstrate on the younger girls and kiss us on the lips when his full weight was on us and we couldn't move.

He used to pinch and smack us on the bottom/thighs when we were doing the activity with each other and couldn't get away.

I told my mother one day. She was so cross with me for saying such things. I wasn't allowed to mention it again.

It wasn't until another girl's mum called mine, because her daughter had told her the same after she'd asked about bruises on her bum, that I was allowed to stop going.

I realised then both because of what had happened and my mother's reaction that I didn't really matter very much.

I escaped a rape attempt when I was 17 - didn't tell my mother until I had a panic attack and couldn't leave the house 6 months later. I told her and she, again, was cross and said it had been my own fault for going out with my friend in the evening.

When I was raped 4 years later, I didn't tell anyone.

My dad hit me growing up. I dumped the few boys who didn't because I'd been fed the "I only hit you because I love you" narratives so many times that I just accepted it and genuinely thought that if someone didn't hit me it was because they didn't care enough.

I know that other girls/women have experienced so much worse that I feel a bit ridiculous for even mentioning this. I see what happened to me (the stuff I've detailed and the endless, ongoing catalogue of things I haven't) as being 'normal' and everyday. I don't know anyone who doesn't have a similar/worse tale to tell.

It wasn't until I discovered MN in my 30s that I really 'got' that men don't hit you because they love you and that it's actually ok to say "no" to a date/to sex/to men...

I'm not scared of men but I am wary and I make no apology for that.

If men try getting all namalt-y with me I tell them to take it up with all the men who are like that and not the women who are trying to protect ourselves against them.

Why is it always our responsibility?

Our responsibility to make sure we're not attacked.
Our responsibility to make sure men don't feel bad that we're wary.
Our responsibility when we fail at both of those...

(Obvs rules of misogyny, I know that...)

they get you when you’re young, too young to truly understand what is happening to you and you are scared you’ll get into trouble as well.

Yup, my friend’s dad who took me down a quiet country lane when he was supposed to be driving my 11 year old self home, then kept asking me to sit on his lap in the car, told me that my parents would be cross with me for driving underage if I told them. Pervy bastard. He then ended up working as security in a place I worked at aged 22 and apparently used my ID photo as a screensaver.

What really infuriates me is when incidents are being reported in the media and press, for example the Rotherham grooming sex ring, or talking about rape statistics or Catholic priests abusing children........the perpetrators are refered to as 'the people involved rather than' the MEN involved' as it is always men!

It as though all reporters and comentators are afraid to say men, why is this?

Women are not credible. We lie. We're emotional. We're vindictive.

To be clear, it's patently MEN that are routinely all these things.

Also it’s reported far and wide how terrible it is to report, how horrible the police are, how picky the cps are, how inquisitorial the court is, how juries won’t believe you, how your rapist will walk away with their head held high whilst you’re in the paper with people baying for your head on a spike. You wouldn’t put your worst enemy through that - why do it to yourself?

Exactly - this is what I mean.

It's worse to be accused of rape - than it is to be raped.

You can't accuse a man of rape - you'll ruin his life.

I mean, yes, rape ruins women's lives, but it doesn't matter, they'll get over it.

You can't go around destroying a man's life / reputation, though!

So ... our culture makes it as difficult for women as possible. Women are not credible. We lie. We're emotional. We're vindictive.

And men are assured of getting away with it - by a legal system ('innocent until proven guilty', 'beyond reasonable doubt') that works brilliantly for all crimes - but terribly for one crime in particular. Rape.

The system could not be more stacked against us.

And it's when you consider all these points, that you realise why MRAs loathe feminists and see us as a total threat.

They know what true equality for men and women means.

Trouble is it’s all part of wider social misogyny.

Men don’t get told how to live their lives in the same way. People might scoff at preppers, but they aren’t personally offended by them. They don’t get all indignant and ‘how DARE they’. Because some preppers are men. Therefore they can live their life how they choose. Even though preppers have a fear many deem irrational (and it’s certainly more irrational than a woman being wary of men) no one takes that fear personally.

But when a behaviour is specific to women, then there’s not just opinion but also this affront over what they think and do. Being afraid of men is AWFUL FOR THE MEN WON’T YOU THINK OF THE MEN.

See also pregnancy, abortion, birth. All areas where people feel they have a right to not just an opinion about how they would do it but be listened to and obeyed.

OP "Everyone seems quite happy to believe namalt - there’s no real push to remove the scales."

interestingly, one friend who got in a massive rage - as did I - during the MeToo stuff is now apologising for men all over the shop. I honestly think she can't face the facts - she did initially acknowledge how widespread it is but now has done a u-turn.

I have tried to explain this to my DP over the trans stuff in regards to our DD's.

He has never been afraid of another man.
Never had to look over his shoulder.
Never had his arse felt/unwanted hands anywhere.
Never had to watch his drink in case it was spiked.
Never had to use the womens loo as an escape.
Never had to be careful getting in a taxi/walking alone/choosing what to wear.

Girls learn this stuff from a young age. Survival skills.

I have been very badly sexually assaulted in the past, twice by senior doctors as well, so I really detest male medics in particular.

Same here and it's left me profoundly scared of men because doctors are supposed to only help you.

To be honest, even before I'd experienced any assault I was wary. I have very clear memories of feeling certain men were predatory even before I had any understanding of sex. I'm convinced I narrowly avoided being assaulted at 8 by the boyfriend of a babysitter who wasn't supposed to be in our house (he snuck in and was trying to persuade his girlfriend to let him put me to bed while she was distracted by my very badly behaved brother, this after being very over-tactile with me and in my face). There were the men who looked me up and down and stared in a certain way to the point of me obviously feeling uncomfortable. There were the ones who wanted me to sit on their laps or let me pick them up when I was making it clear I didn't want to be touched.

I think you pick up on certain signals very clearly. I still know and have experience of lots of decent men who I felt completely safe and comfortable with. I have nice male friends today and a nice dad. But too right am I wary and I don't see why I have to shut up about that.

Fucking hell, cuntess (great name!) that is such a good point. How the hell has that been hiding in plain sight? I am challenging these notions forthwith.

I never say NAMALT. It annoys me when people say it.

I do realise that every man on the planet hasn't committed an assault, but frankly the general attitude, which is also present in a general "burying their head in the sand" view, doesn't make me feel NAMALT.

I might be missing it but I don't see any men working to prevent male violence or endemic misogyny. In fact over the course of my life I feel I have seen misogyny get worse.

Again, speaking as someone who hasn't experienced male violence - one of the things that makes me feel so frustrated is ...

It's seemingly worse to be accused of rape, than it is to be raped (we all agree that it's worse to be murdered, than to be accused of murder).

Women have to cover up what happened to them - be silent - because accusing a man of what they've done is the worst thing that could happen to them (the man). If you speak up, you can expect things not to go well for you.

The trope - 'hell hath no fury like a woman scorned'. Actually, hell hath no fury like a man scorned. When men are scorned, they're far more likely to turn violent, kill. They do it, en masse, daily.

'Women are ruled by their emotions'. And yet men can't be expected to control themselves to the extent of not raping woman who cross their paths - 'well, what did she expect, dressed like that / walking alone there?', etc, etc.

How have we (society) come to accept these ways of diminishing us - making us appear silly, weak, out of control - when actually, the opposite is true?

This cover-up, that depends wholesale on our participation, simultaneously benefits men, and harms us.

It is the wolf in sheeps clothing, on many threads and conversations NAMALT consists of details of wonderful men in womens lives such as husbands, sons, brothers and friends etc. But reality is men who commit sexual assault are someone’s son, someone’s family, someone’s friend and they could be someone’s husband/ partner. As most women keep sexual assault private we can only judge on character and I know my judgement is screwed. The men in my life have not assaulted me but can anyone guarantee the men in their lives have never sexually assaulted anyone.

I am grateful for the article on Schrodingers Rapist. It clarifies perfectly why I am actually scared of some trans identifying men, not just the "pretend" ones we know will abuse self ID. I have not been scared of the TIMs I have met in real life. But I am scared of several of the trans identifying men plastered over the media at the moment. Because they are quite public about their disregard for my boundaries. That flags them up to me as being potential problems; people who might disregard other, physical boundaries. So I am going to own that I am afraid of some TIMs. Its not a phobia though because it is not irrational, as that article explains.

Oh yes I get this and my experiences have been relatively mild compared to others. It's constant though.

To make it more complicated most if us have sexual desire and/or a want to have children which, unless you are lesbian or have means of getting sperm another way (sperm bank), you need a man for and need to make yourself vulnerable in order to get that. It's hugely complicated. I spent my younger years simultaneously scared of men but full of longing too. It's a head fuck.

And yes yes to putting your own needs last and not knowing what you want or how to even ask for it. Bridezilla anyone?

oh how I understand this. I could have written that post and am having physical flashbacks writing this. There are a few men I trust, family members but that's it. I can't trust others after what happened to me. I'd love to know what it's like to live life completely unafraid but that will never happen and I've accepted that. I have no choice but to.

dowager I am lucky enough to be in the same boat as you, but like the OP I can't understand how any woman isn't wary of men. We all do it - avoid dark places, avoid being alone with strange men, avoid unmarked taxis - why wouldn't we? That risk is there, whether we like it or not.

There's a line in the book The Power where the female politician who has just figured out how to make her power work (so she can electrocute people with just her fingertips, for anyone who hasn't read it), when she's in a meeting with a man who usually talks over her etc, when she finally just calls him on his bullshit and ends the meeting. And it ends with a line something like "she'd never spoken to him like that before, but now she knew that if she wanted to, she could kill him, there was no fear. And she realised that was how men felt all the time." That is a complete bastardisation of the quote, the feeling of it rather than the actual words, but I found it very powerful as a summary of male/female relations - even in a professional situation where there is no hint or experience of violence between the two participants, that dynamic was there deep under the surface.