The Deptford People Project and the impact of self-ID and transactivism on working class women

“if we are an oppressed sex then what is the benefit to me1n?”

Good question

We only know women are disadvantaged under patriarchy because we can define them as a group and compare them to men. If we can't do this any more, the disadvantage can no longer be seen and the rationale for addressing it is gone too. - tallulah
this above makes sense to me - thank you. i feel it is wrong to altar the legal definition of a woman. i'm just struggling with widespread examples that are going to hit us on a day to day basis.

hence i get the NHS example

i get the pay gap example - and actually this example is not about trans people - but about the definition of what a woman is - i like this example.

I get to change the definition of a woman to include a section of society with a penis is wrong - BUT i go back to my daughters question

if we are an oppressed sex then what is the benefit to men?

you could jump a toilet queue in the gents declare 'i'm trans" and go in the womens - but ore often than not we have queues - so i guess using that exampl i coould go into the gents and declare the same

you might get the odd pervert in a hospital ward - someone with a mental health issue who wants to see a tit through a curtain or something - but its not going to be an every day. occurance that affects lots of women - not saying its right. just that it would probably affect v. few women - so why should women care based on this example.

i am still struggling a little if we are opressed, what tangible benefits do men get and...AND what then disaddvantages us.

I usually lurk on here but I just wanted to say that article has blown my mind. I never thought of applying a class analysis to this as well, but OF COURSE.

Once you see it, you can't unsee it! They are gentrifying their way into the spaces and services of the most vulnerable women in the country. Women in prison; women in DV refuges; women under section in locked mental health wards; women using any of the bare bones services austerity has left them with. All vulnerable and marginalised women - who have no public voice at all - required to cede space to mostly white, mostly middle class, males, who are suddenly marginalised.

I would add that it wouldn’t be so bad if Lily had quietly got on with being a women’s officer and proved everybody wrong. I don’t know for certain that Lily isn’t performing those duties as I’m not a constituent, but a brief look at Twitter would suggest not.

@Custardo, in response to this question:

2) why not have a 3rd trans option when it comed to official ientity - and then the labour party can have trans branch officers and the trans community could also benefit from positive discrimination.

There was a trans(or possibly LGBT - perhaps someone else knows exactly) officer position up for grabs at the same time as the women’s officer position. Liliy chose to run for women’s officer instead. Personally I find that doubly outrageous as it means trans rights and needs are being doubly pushed forwards at the obvious expense of women.

53rdWay nailed it

I feel so betrayed by the Guardian in general

The Guardian is now the newspaper equivalent of your lefty bloke friend-of-a-friend who gets all fired up about poverty and the NHS and swears about the Tories, and you think he’s okay if a bit full of himself, but then you mention something about the sex trade and he spends three hours ranting at you about what a prude you are and how actually buying sex is a great way to support women’s empowerment. And then he strops off with his IPA beer and his ponytail to mansplain socialism to someone else.

I usually lurk on here but I just wanted to say that article has blown my mind. I never thought of applying a class analysis to this as well, but OF COURSE.

Anyway, as you were.

Custardo If you 'get' why mixed psychiatric wards and hospital wards are a problem then you see the problem. The two main problems are risk and consent.

Research by the Equality and Human Rights Commission showed that 95% of women using women’s services preferred to receive them from a women only-organisation.
www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/research-report-86-the-impact-of-changes-in-commissioning-and-funding-on-women-only-services.pdf

Women only services are more effective, for women.
thewomensresourcecentre.org.uk/resources/defending-women-only-services-2/

custardo the self id law is a perverts' charter. All of a sudden it is easy to get into women's spaces. Perverts and abusers who wouldn't ever live as a woman 100% and certainly wouldn't remove their cock and balls can pretend to be trans and get access. There are a hell of a lot of them around as every woman knows.

My biggest objection though is that it effectively enshrines in law that being a woman is all about makeup, tits, frocks and simpering, not XX chromosomes and a uterus. Thus a person with a penis can be a woman if he says he feels like what he thinks it is to be a woman, i.e. a stereotype.

If you as a woman point out that that's bollocks and he's a man, probably with some mental health issues, then you are guilty of a hate crime, same as if you were racist or homophobic.

That's an insane law to have in a country like the UK where we try to have fact-based laws. We don't teach creationism, we don't force people to go to church, we don't prescribe diet pills to anorexics.

Of course, we know some people believe in Adam and Eve, think non-believers are going to hell, think they are fat when they are thin and mostly they can carry on with their lives while believing such obvious falsehoods.

We are allowed to argue the facts and say no I don't believe that publicly though. Yet here we are with laws proposed where you are a vile bigot if you say "women don't have dicks" or "transwomen are men". It is fundamentally wrong.

I feel so betrayed by the Guardian in general

Join the line.

If self-id comes in then 'woman' won't mean 'person with female reproductive system' any more. That's going to make it very hard to fight for women's rights, because you can't fight for something you can't define.

For example, if women are underpaid within a company, what's to stop the company quietly asking a few highly paid male people to identify as 'non-binary'? Gender pay-gap sorted.

We only know women are disadvantaged under patriarchy because we can define them as a group and compare them to men. If we can't do this any more, the disadvantage can no longer be seen and the rationale for addressing it is gone too.

The retain the privilege of men while also acquiring a Teflon coating of being the Most Oppressed People Ever™ (MOPE) meaning that on seeing the slightest sign of criticising they can shut it down with a cry of "transphobia".

Men who identify as women aren't treated as women - they're treated as very special men.

can you outline how

that link pertains to america

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xxfactor/2015/02/04/angelaaamessexxdiscriminationcaseebreastfeedinggmomlosessbecausemen.html

Trans rights erase women's rights

That’s where it gets complicated!

ok totally get the spaces thing get the segregates hospital wards etc.

i still dont get how this infringes on a grand scale - womens rights.

Custardo, I found this very useful. Essentially, the work being done at this refuge is being disrupted by students

mobile.twitter.com/LucyLoveslife1/status/973852316787933184

Others are a lot more educated than me Custardo but essentially the idea is that, this being an imperfect world, sex-segregated spaces are necessary and important. Unfortunately, some trans activists have decided that sex segregated spaces are a citadel they need to storm.

Link to a testimony follows.

thanks - but that kind o example wont be widespread - so why is this troubling us as women - what am i missing

Yes

“i also am not ure how this puts womens rights in jeapordy can soeone explain? is it that omeone who is trans asg has a dick - can go for a job - get the job - the commpany can say they employed a woman but really its still soeone with a ick however they idenfify?

thanks for thel ink - right - im nowhere near peak trans

lemme see if i got this right

trans who are fetishists (ASG?) and who are using the potential hange in law to further their own ends = bad

trans who have body dysmorphia = caught in the midle

having a discussion with grown up daughter about this and she asked - if in a patriarchal society - men are favoured - why would someone say they were trans to get treated like us women i.e. not as well as men.

i said i dont know.

;i also am not ure how this puts womens rights in jeapordy can soeone explain? is it that omeone who is trans asg has a dick - can go for a job - get the job - the commpany can say they employed a woman but really its still soeone with a ick however they idenfify?

wha other examples mmight their be? how does this infrindge on our rights as womankind?

thanks

aslo sorry about piss poor spelling ( worse than usual) as keyboard needs a good clean and i cant be arsed

I was so angry about the Guardian piece, they discussed our event without talking to anybody who attended. I feel so betrayed by the Guardian in general

Hmm, not much bandwidth given to Lucy in Guardian piece though.