The Deptford People Project and the impact of self-ID and transactivism on working class women

yep seen the psort argument - doesn't affect a lot of women tbh. how it is going to affect me - my daughter?

Just to respond to this - I think that if the proposed changes are made to the GRA, it will affect most women in some way, even if it's just about statistics, there will be an impact. However, I also believe that if it only impacted 5% of women, then it would be worth fighting against - particularly considering that the changes will mostly impact prisons and services for vulnerable women in a significant way.

When it comes to women's rights we have to ask if politicians say it's ok to disadvantage 1% of us to prioritise TRAs, what is to stop them impacting 5% of us, 10% of us? Where do we draw the line if we are willing to give up the fundamental ability to name ourselves as female and women which is the basis of our right to sex segregated spaces?

I love it when someone asks the real basic questions.

Custardo's daughter is a .

@custardo
i think the boardroom scenario - whilst it might happen in an odd circumstance - i find it unlikley as an example

Have you heard of Philip Bunce (sometimes known as Phillipa, or Pips)? Do have a google.

I’m not sure in many cases that there is a logical benefit to men. There’s a reason it has long been considered a mental illness. Feeling like you’re the other sex isn’t something that is driven by rational thought of the pros and cons I don’t think.

The question of how it disadvantages women has been pretty well covered I think. One of the things I find difficult about all this, and specifically with joining in with any kind of campaign is that in the short term, these changes aren’t going to affect me particularly. But in the UK, they will affect marginalised women who don’t have much voice. I feel it’s important that those who can speak out, do.

I have also had a peek into a possible future this morning on Twitter. I started looking at what SOGI123 is. At first it looks admirable. It’s all about allowing children to be who they are and preventing homophobic and trans bullying. I read right to the end of a pamphlet put out by the “anti” campaign and didn’t much like it as it was church-based and overbearingly moralistic. Easy to dismiss. But the final paragraph was all about the fact that pupils, some of them very young, had explicitly been told not to tell their parents when certain events were happening. And that makes my blood run cold. Because if you shut out dissenting voices by stealth, especially if you are directing your message at very young children, then it opens a huge question about why. And this is happening in Canada, a place I long thought was rational and a good place to live.

if we are an oppressed sex then what is the benefit to men?

As others have pointed out, men who 'identify' as women don't actually get treated like women, and they certainly don't share in women's oppression - how could they, when sex-based oppression is based on having a female body?

Simply saying that he 'identifies' as female and then adopting some feminine appearance norms doesn't magically move a man into the other sex class - people don't suddenly start to believe that he is literally female.

It really shows how objectified women are, how almost no one believes that we are real people with a specific, material reality of oppression, that people think that men can 'become women' and experience sex-based oppression simply by taking on some feminine appearance norms.

No one treats a man in lipstick and a dress like a woman, because everyone knows he's not a woman - most often, in the West at least, such men are treated like super special, vulnerable men who need to be protected and coddled and certainly prioritised above actual women, and have their special needs indulged (which is another reason why some men adopt a trans identity - it allows them to get away with creepy shit that ordinary men would be socially shamed for, such as openly sexualising pubescent girls and then claiming it's because they are pining for their lost 'girlhood').

The claim by trans activists that trans-identified men are more oppressed than women because they suffer both sexism and transphobia really exposes this doublethink, because it is impossible for a man to suffer both at once. A trans-identifed man can only experience 'transphobia' if people are aware that he is 'trans', i.e., male, which by definition means that he isn't being treated as a woman.

@thebewilderness

Men court women and we are the gatekeepers to sex.
The say they do everything for us and we should be grateful.
This is the message of the patriarchy. The media sells it and the men buy it. Some women do too, but most of us see the difference between the narrative and the lived experience.
If boys believe the story the patriarchs tell about women it should come as no surprise that some might covet the power the patriarchs claim the girls have to seduce them.
If you read the transgender identified men's words that is what they are saying. They want the womanhood the patriarchy tells them we have. Until they experience a little of it. Then they call it transphobia.

Really insightful comments - the number of times I have seem MRAs even Jordan Peterson claim women are gatekeepers for sex, we have the power etc etc and I have to really steady my thoughts which have gone into cognitive dissonance when I hear that. I think what the fuck? Have I more power than I think? Am I not using that power?

And then I come back to reality where I literally have no real power - on my own

“The first thing Lily Madigan did upon receiving their GRC was to apply to volunteer for women’s refuge. This is a white, middle class, 20-year-old male (who has not medically transitioned), who took their school to court to be able to wear a skirt. Lily wasn’t applying to volunteer because they felt they had something to offer victims of domestic violence. Lily was using women’s refuge to validate their identity and enforce transgender rights regardless of the effect on female victims.”

And this is meant to be the the person representing women in the Labour Party - you're drinking the Trans kool-aid Labour Party…..

Also is this why Womensaid are reviewing their Trans stance - anyone know? I am still very concerned that they will buckle.

It makes it appear a normal mainstream thing to state that there is pink brain and blue brain. It is even in law that there is a way of thinking and behaving that makes you a woman. This is a damaging sexist subtext for all women.

We've been fighting gender stereotypes for years. The improvements have benefitted us all. Going back to old stereotypes damages us all.

Many different reasons why men would choose to identify as women, including

• genuine body dysmorphia
• sexual kicks (AGP)
• hatred of women (taking away their stuff so they can't have it, even if the man doesn't really want it himself)
• attention seeking (it's amazing how skinny effeminate boys can go from invisible to "stunning and brave" overnight if they come out as trans)
• to access spaces where women are vulnerable (the lengths that men will go to for access to vulnerable women and children is astounding)
• denial of homosexuality (in countries like Iran where being gay is punishable by death, there is a huge % of trans people, whilst Bible Belt America also has more than average % of trans people as being trans is "preferable" to being gay)

Plus I think many men don't really believe that women are oppressed: they challenge the stats on the gender pay gap, they are argue #whataboutmetoo, they say that we get custody of children more often / retire earlier / only have to work part-time.... And genuinely (or disingenuously) think that being a woman is an easy option

The article in the OP is fantastic, and really highlights the class issues involved in all this.

Custardo - for what it’s worth, my view is that the elements of gender and identity politics as practised by white middle class students of the type described in the article are part of a backlash against both second wave feminism and minority rights.

I think it comes from the same sort of thinking that leads some men to believe that the feminist movement has led to women being advantaged over and above men. As other groups that are the victims of discrimination (BAME, LGB) are given more protections and a voice, some people in the white majority feel that they no longer have a voice anyone wants to listen to. Of course that’s not true, but it leads to this oppression olympics mentality.

White middle class liberal students can’t of course shut those new voices down, but they feel boring and perceive that privilege comes from being oppressed. How else can they, as straight white people, join the oppressed? By claiming to be trans or gender queer and bellowing at anyone who either doesn’t understand or doesn’t want to play by the insanely complicated rules of their philosophy.

It is, of course, extremely distasteful to play at oppression in this way, and centring themselves at the expense of people who are genuinely struggling will make it harder for real victims to access support.

And their privilege is such that they can (and probably will) walk away from their ”oppression” at any time. No longer a trans lesbian, just a boring old white, straight man. For these woke students this is a fad, which wouldn’t be a problem if it didn’t have consequences for truly oppressed people, as so eloquently explained in that article.

So, @custardo, it isn’t that being a woman would bring advantages to a man working in an office or some such. For people who don’t have gender dysphoria or sex fetishises, a fancy pants gender identity brings social capital in the twitter age. In some cases, social capital can turn into real capital online.

nosquirrels thanks for the changes in law post - really informative

along eith the examples that hesterton gave.

i think the funding argument is hypothesis of something that could possibly happen - so im scepticle of that

womens scholarships - anther good example to add to hestertons examples thank you light.

also the crime stats - re: how the police are funded based on stats so that has a definate impact

i think the boardroom scenario - whilst it might happen in an odd circumstance - i find it unlikley as an example

sorry about the miscarriage and the shitty thread you posted 2 kids - and i know there are women haters out there, i just think it is magnnified to soething it isn't within the confines of the feminist threads on MN. that is not to say there aren't some monumental fundementalist women haters there are - i know ...but..

anyay thanks for being patient with me, thanks for not thinking i am bieing deliberatley goady ( was going to give up trying to get an answer about an hour ago glad i didn't). thanks for not just telling me to fuck off the feministm threads and engaging with me. i like MN when it works!

custy

Just to be clear, hatred + ignorance.

Flame probably hatred but also maybe just zero awareness. I think there was a man on Twitter recently who thought women could hold in period blood like wee and therefore choose when it came out, like when you go to the toilet. They didn't realise it just comes out.

Christ alive that thread about miscarriage. Does that prick really think a miscarriage is like taking a crap? Or does he just hate women that much?

Funding:
if “woman” = “people who say so” then we have agreed that there is no sex-based differences- it’s all just gender.

So why fund research into women’s medical issues, or domestic abuse of women by men, or projects to get women into STEM etc?

Men can already get promoted over you - yes. So why are we making it easier for even more men to take our places? In the scenario I gave above, no one would be doing it for deliberately nefarious purposes I’m sure, but the woman would lose out to the trans person.

Politicians are now on record saying “biology is outdated”.

Is it?

Also the way statistics are collated with regard to born men and women.

E.g. if company boardrooms must comprise, say, 30% women at minimum, but those "women" are actually transwomen who transed in their 30s after climbing the greasy pole as men..... then the statistics may bear out - women represented, tick - but if those "women" are actually transwomen, then no - women are definitely not represented.

Women's scholarships and bursaries, in order to try to redress the traditional pressures against women's education. Again, if such scholarships or bursaries are given to female-identifying males, then that's another woman who was unfairly robbed of an opportunity she could have had.

Let alone crime statistics, and sex crime in particular. If transwomen are recorded as women, for crime recording purposes, then if self-ID becomes legitimate, we can expect an explosion in crimes, especially sex crimes, committed by women, and a reduction in such crimes committed by men. All false. Who wins in this scenario, eh?

custardo one example would be that trans' point of view completely negates feminism. Completely obfuscates the fact we are discriminated against. Are sexually abused on a grand scale and our biology makes it hard to compete against men - in sport, or the workplace. This issue has really opened my eyes to the hatred certain (not all) men have for women. This tweet is from a man who thinks having a miscarriage is like having a shit. I miscarried my baby is a pub toilet. It was not like having a poo.

having a discussion with grown up daughter about this and she asked - if in a patriarchal society - men are favoured - why would someone say they were trans to get treated like us women i.e. not as well as men.

This issue comes up a lot. In a patriarchal society women are presented as and viewed as privileged by men.
Men who envy SAHMs.
Men who believe women can have sexual relations whenever they want.
Men we see on this forum who repeatedly claim that they historically built and made and have done everything and women are supported by men's hard work.
Men court women and we are the gatekeepers to sex.
The say they do everything for us and we should be grateful.
This is the message of the patriarchy. The media sells it and the men buy it. Some women do too, but most of us see the difference between the narrative and the lived experience.
If boys believe the story the patriarchs tell about women it should come as no surprise that some might covet the power the patriarchs claim the girls have to seduce them.
If you read the transgender identified men's words that is what they are saying. They want the womanhood the patriarchy tells them we have. Until they experience a little of it. Then they call it transphobia.

Changes in law.

Currently the Equality Act says sex is a protected characteristic- it recognised that women have a need for sex-segregated spaces and services. Like all Hesterton’s examples. Under current Equality Act law, it’s OK that organisations or services say “No - you are a man with a penis you can’t work for us” and that’s NOT discrimination.

If you are trans but have a GRC (gender recognition certificate) you can be treated as a member of the sex you’ve transitioned to. And then you CAN work for those services because 2 doctors have agreed you’ve been a “woman” for over 2 years and taken hormones etc.

BUT - self ID says scrap the medical proof of 2 doctors, you are what you say you are. Scrap the 2 year period of living as your chosen sex. Just declare you “intend” to. Bingo, you have a GRC and can now be admitted to all the single-sex services and it will be discrimination to refuse.

I think different trans people want different things so you can't make generalisations about what all people want or would do. The thing about self-ID is any man could choose to use it you would never know the motivations. Lots of people have given answers, so maybe just think them through and come to whatever your own conclusions are about the issue and how you think it affects you or other often vulnerable women if you also care about them.

but men are more likley to get a promotion over me anyway - no need to declare yourself a woman for that.

interested in the funding, regulation and laws though - any more info

a man puts on a dress and gets a promotion over me? not anywhere i have worked would a man in a dress not be looked at sideways ( whethr that is right or wrong)

The narrative is that because they’re so “brave” to transition, they are therefore more deserving than you, as a woman.

So if all qualifications and skills are equal, but you’re a born woman and they’re a trans woman, they have a much bigger tick in the equality and inclusivity box - which organisations are keen to promote. You lose out. Plus - the statistics say they’re a woman, so you’re no longer oppressed at all, as a “woman” git the job (and probably a bigger pay rise because they’ll not bother employers with tedious childbearing or maternity leave, as everyone knows that’s not a biological reality for them).

i can hesterton - thank you.

therefore in those scenarios does the proposed hange in law mean i would not be allowed to ask for a woman - as that would be ddiscriminatory

and if so what would be the consequence