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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is it called RADICAL feminism??

128 replies

aaarrrggghhhh · 24/03/2018 21:44

ie in the whole TERF thing?

My understanding is the basic position is:

sex = biological fact = reason for all sorts of bad stuff done to women (e.g. sexual assault, inadequate medical care) = need for interventions/policies to address bad stuff because of biology = need for women to be identified as women in a number of circumstances so biological related bad stuff can be addressed

gender = social construct and cultural stereotypes (e.g. relevantly makeup and dress wearing) = reason for all sorts of bad stuff being done to women (e.g. women are easily distracted by pink unicorns so can't possibly run business, men aren't able to clean so women must do all the cleaning) = need for gender stereotypes to be uncoupled from identification of "women" as women. Indeed, often this means the use of sex specific terms is to be avoided to avoid gender stereotypes (e.g. chairperson).

dominant transgender position/self- id = women = gender construct not biological fact = women to be identified as 'cis' women on the basis that they are one subset of a broader category of women based entirely on gender = the complete opposite of basic feminist principles.

Am I missing something? How is this radical??? My understanding is that this is really uncontroversial feminist logic that is accepted in the mainstream??? For the life of me I can't see how this logic is radical.

My own view is that i am entirely happy for men to wander round in dresses and lipstick and more power to that for challenging gender stereotypes. Very happy to support clear rights for people who don't feel they fit within established gender constructs to not be discriminated against in the workplace etc.

VERY unhappy to get changed at the swimming pool with ANY person with a penis in the room whatever they identify as. Very happy to support the provision of other areas for such people to get changed were they feel safe.

How is any of this radical? How did that become the accepted term??

OP posts:
Stillscreaming · 24/03/2018 22:58

@ aaarrrggghhhh

Andrea Dworkin is an excellent place to start if you want to learn more about radical feminism. She's funny and engaging with a wonderful mind. She was discredited over something she said about incest but her work is amazing and ground breaking and relatively easy to read in the original.

Her work sort of started the sex wars, the split between those who were anti sex work and anti sexeorkers. Liberal feminists developed the idea that not all porn is equally bad, that lesbian stuff made by lesbians wasn't oppressive etc and that if a women chose to make her living in sex work, she was still an acceptable human being.

It's less that the liberal feminists want to oppress women and more that there is an acceptance that some women don't choose their mode of opression.

Most feminist writing is actually quite subtle in the difference of ideas, it's also, often, quite respectful of different views.

smithsinarazz · 24/03/2018 22:58

Stillscreaming - re "the entire medical profession"... Well. When I outed myself as a terf on facebook, the next time I spoke to my sister she said "Well, you were quite right. How can a man be really a woman?" My mum said "Well, you know So-and-so - she's a man, isn't she?" They're both doctors.
But neither are psychologists/psychiatrists and that's what we really need - someone to tell us who's talking bollocks.
I started out as a linguist, so I believe that meaning is socially-constructed, and that no one person or group gets to dictate definitions to everyone else

ErrolTheDragon · 24/03/2018 22:56

I think the 'radical' was put in as a divisive tactic, as opposed to 'liberal'. It's a divide and rule thing.

aaarrrggghhhh · 24/03/2018 22:55

Haidees - yes that's how I have been seeing it too which is why I wanted to understand.

It just seems to be so commonly used as a widely accepted term.

So - whilst I understand that there is a very valid and helpful debate about where this does/should fit within feminist theory - I think in reality on the ground out in the real world using the phrase "radical" is just a way to marginalise what is I think is really a mainstream view (albeit obviously one that is not universally accepted).

OP posts:
aaarrrggghhhh · 24/03/2018 22:51

Radishes?

Oh god don't tell me there's a vegetarian aspect as well.

OP posts:
Haidees · 24/03/2018 22:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Stillscreaming · 24/03/2018 22:49

There's someone called NotCursedE on twitter

Not I but I'd be interested to hear if someone had been elected boss of the trans people. If they had elected a single person who speaks for all of them and who they are all responsible for. Until then I'll take your word for it that someone said something stupid in Twitter.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 24/03/2018 22:48

Yes I loved that one Barracker. Just didn't post it b/c the fcker needs no further attention

DullAndOld · 24/03/2018 22:47

radical = from the Latin for root, radis.

eg Radish..

SexMatters · 24/03/2018 22:47

Wanting feminism to be about women doesn't seem all that radical to me.

Unfortunately in a Patriarchy, that's as radical as it gets.

aaarrrggghhhh · 24/03/2018 22:47

Ladies (bet that got you're attention...)

I started this thread because I really genuinely wanted to learn about the context/history/linguistic framing of the debate - I have no doubt you all have a lot to share in terms of your vast knowledge and history - would be helpful for my own selfish purposes to keep it a bit more on track in that general direction?

Thanks!

OP posts:
smithsinarazz · 24/03/2018 22:45

Good point, OP. Wanting feminism to be about women doesn't seem all that radical to me.

Stillscreaming · 24/03/2018 22:44

No, they are not, though.
There's literally no difference between the two other than a false belief one of them possesses.

The entire medical profession takes a different view. However, it's an excellent idea not to let strangers into your house and one you should stick with.

NotTerfNorCis · 24/03/2018 22:44

I'm sure I saw NotCursed hanging around on this very board earlier today. Can't remember what thread though.

BarrackerBarmer · 24/03/2018 22:42

There's someone called NotCursedE on twitter who put together the most marvellous #PeakTrans thread full of men who were busy being the highest paid 'female CEO' and first 'woman' officer in the military etc.

It was jam packed with example after jaw dropping example of men showing the oldfashioned breeder-type women how to really woman well.

Spectacular own goal

SexMatters · 24/03/2018 22:42

appreciation of intersectionality
Do you mean lesbian intersecting with penis?

Stillscreaming · 24/03/2018 22:42

NotTerfNorCis

No, but if you're trying to imply that I'm another poster (again), why not get in touch with MNHQ rather than ruining the thread.

Best wishes in sisterhood.

Popchyk · 24/03/2018 22:40

Cross-posted with Barracker.

Stillscreaming · 24/03/2018 22:39

Maybe look in the mirror screaming and you might see one.

No, I'm just an old feminist dyke, with liberal leanings and an appreciation of intersectionality.

Popchyk · 24/03/2018 22:39

What is the difference between "bloke in a dress" and "trans woman", Screaming?

BarrackerBarmer · 24/03/2018 22:38

I don't think that a bloke in a dress is a woman. I assumed by bloke in a dress we were talking about blokes.in.dresses.

Trans women are a whole different kettle of fish.

No, they are not, though.
There's literally no difference between the two other than a false belief one of them possesses.

There's no point trying to separate two groups of men like this.

If a strange man turns up on my doorstep and tells me he lives in my house, it doesn't matter whether he sincerely believes this, or is cynically gaslighting me as a trick.

Neither is correct
Neither is getting in

NotTerfNorCis · 24/03/2018 22:38

@StillScreaming are you familiar with @notCursedE?

Stillscreaming · 24/03/2018 22:36

Hardly the point.

Of course it's not the point, if you see feminism as something that belongs to white, middle class, able bodied, Western women, then you wouldn't expect anyone to acknowledge that anyone isn't.

SexMatters · 24/03/2018 22:33

Maybe look in the mirror screaming and you might see one.

Stillscreaming · 24/03/2018 22:32

I'm never quite sure who 'transactivists' are can you elucidate?