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Original poster

This advice isn't right from Stonewall, is it?

63 replies

yetanothertranswoman · 24/03/2018 21:41

www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/discrimination/discrimination-consumer

From that:

A clothes shop must allow trans women to use the female changing room

I was always under the impression that the Equality Act meant that someone could not be discriminated against if they were undergoing gender reassignment. So they couldn't be sacked if they were under going reassignment and they couldn't be refused service - except in limited areas.

I didn't think it meant that a transwoman could be treated 'as a woman' - I thought that came from the GRC.

So it wouldn't be discrimination if a transwoman was not allowed in the female changing room but was offered alternative changing facilities.

It wouldn't be discrimination if someone under going gender reassignment was refused entry to a woman's group. But if they got a gender recognition certificate, then it would be discrimination (except for reasons of legitimate interest)

That's what I've always thought - there's a difference between the Equality Act - where it's illegal to discriminate against someone undergoing gender reassignment (but you don't have to treat them the same as someone they are transitioning to) but once someone got a GRC, they are now a member of the new sex (although exceptions can be applied)

Stonewall's advice is wrong, isn't it?

OP posts:
Pratchet · 24/03/2018 23:31

I like that under the schools it says they must respect gender identity but only should defer to oronouns and changing rooms.

Pratchet · 24/03/2018 23:29

The Equality Act specifically mentions changing rooms as spaces that can remain single sex and exclude people with a GRC. Stonewall is wrong.

ArcheryAnnie · 24/03/2018 23:20

I thought the Equality Act was very clear that single-sex spaces could lawfully exclude people of the opposite sex - even when they a
had a GRA and were legally of the same sex - when it was a proportionate way to ensure the provision of that service.

This resource page... thewomensresourcecentre.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/how-legislation-protects-women-only-spaces-and-services-an-overview-june-2016-1.pdf

....says that the notes accompanying the Equality Act actually cite changing rooms in department stores as an example of a space that is a lawful single-sex space.

LonginesPrime · 24/03/2018 23:17

why bother getting a GRC

For stuff like pensions, I guess.

I can't imagine people are asked to show them in shop changing rooms very often.

Original poster
yetanothertranswoman · 24/03/2018 23:04

It seems very confusing. No one should be discriminated if they are undergoing gender reassignment.

But what does that discrimination look like - and why bother getting a GRC if there is not much difference between being protected from discrimination under the Equality Act and 'being treated as a member of the newly acquired sex' ?

OP posts:
HaruNoSakura · 24/03/2018 22:59

No, it's unlawful in nearly all circumstances for high street-style businesses to not allow somebody with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment to use the facilities of their acquired gender. So that would be things like toilets and changing rooms.

LonginesPrime · 24/03/2018 22:53

A person doesn't need to have a GRC to have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment under the Equality Act. According to the guidance to the act, they just have to live as that sex or propose to do so.

Stonewall has alluded to the fact that sometimes it would be for the courts to decide in an individual circumstance, so I guess that the limits of the law won't be clarified until people challenge it in every day situations.

Original poster
yetanothertranswoman · 24/03/2018 22:37

What about changing rooms in clothes shops?

I was under the impression that it was not illegal to tell someone undergoing gender reassignment that they could not use the changing rooms they wanted to - if an alternative was offered - as the service is still being provided to the customer but it's not the same as that of someone of that sex

OP posts:
TheGrumpySquirrel · 24/03/2018 22:32

X-post

You are right about stonewall - the single sex spaces are allowed to invoke the equality act exemptions to discriminate in those cases (women's refuges etc)

Original poster
yetanothertranswoman · 24/03/2018 22:30

I thought that even with a GRC, the single sex exemptions still apply

I don't know - the GRA states that once you get one, you acquire the sex of the new certificate.

But the Equality Act states that it's legal to have single sex exemptions if you are a transsexual

Legally - what happens to someone undergoing gender reassignment when they aquire a GRC and acquire the new sex certificate?

But I'm not sure about the Stonewall advice at all.

OP posts:
TheGrumpySquirrel · 24/03/2018 22:30

Sorry actually you are right - I think there is no legal distinction between sex & gender

TheGrumpySquirrel · 24/03/2018 22:27

I thought that even with a GRC, the single sex exemptions still apply ..

BlytheByName · 24/03/2018 22:22

I have no idea but nothing that Stonewall does either surprises me or includes me and I'm a lesbian. They've drunk the koolaid.