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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harriet Harman - Men should sit out of next leadership contest

62 replies

FeministBadger · 23/03/2018 16:02

Haven't seen this posted in Feminism chat yet, but would be interested to understand people's thoughts on Harriet Harman's claim that men should be stepping aside to ensure that the next Labour leader is a woman. (Hope the link works) www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/93837/excl-harriet-harman-says-men-should-sit-out-next

I'm having a couple of reactions to this - first one being it's never going to happen even if you could get Momentum on side. I also wonder if it did happen, whether positive discrimination would instantly damn whichever woman got the post and end up resulting in so much outright and subtle misogyny that she'd never get anything done because of the backlash which would then be seen as proof that she wasn't capable.

What do you think - would it ever happen and should it?

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ErrolTheDragon · 30/03/2018 17:47

An all woman leadership contest is a ridiculous idea full stop.

Do you think an all man leadership contest is also ridiculous?

ohamIreally · 30/03/2018 16:59

Why is that ellen?

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 25/03/2018 09:43

An all woman leadership contest is a ridiculous idea full stop.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/03/2018 09:18

Predictably, rod Liddell facetiously notes HHs idea plus self ID for AWS could give us Andy burnham in a frock or Sadie Khan in a niqab, but accurately 'Men are endlessly inventive when it comes to getting their own way.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nothing-proves-jeremy-corbyn-is-anti-semitic-just-everything-he-says-anddoes-sh0n23hg0?shareToken=af852b89b79b6e1e0a18f22783d11523

(He also comments, under the heading 'linguists fail' on Mount Holyoke college instructing staff not to refer to its students as women. It's a women's college. (though having googled it appears it's now an everyone-but-men-defined-as-men). 'Misogyny has many faces, doesn't it' ... )

ChattyLion · 24/03/2018 09:58

Argh Popchyk I think that’s true. It’s shit. So different from pre-global financial crisis ‘new’ Labour who wanted to be the party of government.
Where is the electable centre-ground Labour that could actually ever get in to power? That’s a problem for all left wingers even those who think the centre ground is a total sellout.
I feel doubly disenfranchised because, given the denial of any gender critical thinking in party politics, I don’t have anyone to vote for even to show support of their principles, even if they are still well away from getting enough electoral support to get into power. Sad

Hypermice · 24/03/2018 09:52

Interesting. Because it makes me question the innate reaction I have to each party. And thus a lot of my own convictions

Previously I’d have assumed the left were inherently more feminist and the right less so.

The recent decent of labour into misogynistic bromentum TRA hell has stripped me of any delusion the left care about women. I’m still not convinced the right do either as conservative social policies seem to disproportionately affect women.

I’m certainly questioning my core political identity. Lifelong labour voter but now...

Popchyk · 24/03/2018 09:44

I don't think the Labour Party actually want to get into power though. Not when it comes down to it.

I think they're happy being in opposition where they can be self-righteous and sanctimonious and don't have to actually do very much at all other than slag off the Tories. They are in their comfort zone.

And given how they've been operating recently I think that is for the best.

ChattyLion · 24/03/2018 09:42

Errol agreed, I would be amazed if the next Labour leader isn’t a man, but if ever that somehow wasn’t possible, given current attitudes displayed I think they would pick a TW leader over a W leader if given the choice.

ErrolTheDragon · 24/03/2018 09:35

(I also think, if this happens, it will be a trans woman. That will keep both the Woke Penis Feministsâ„¢ and the men happy, especially the men who think a women-only leadership contest would be unfair)

I actually think that's very unlikely - it would put the issue right in the spotlight, and I don't think ordinary voters (both women and men) would be impressed.

Popchyk · 24/03/2018 09:32

Sorry that should read:

"I also agree we will see a man who identifies as a woman before we see a woman as Labour leader".

CisMyArse · 24/03/2018 09:29

If and it's a massive IF, Labour will select a TransWoman for the job.

Welcome to the future.

Popchyk · 24/03/2018 09:27

Labour as a party seem to be saying:

  • Women should give up their limited spaces and stand aside for transgender people who claim to be women. That is right and proper and for the greater good.
  • Men should never give up their spaces and stand aside. For anybody. Ever. That is right and proper and for the greater good.

And a lot of senior figures have convinced themselves that this is the morally right thing to do. Women lose, men gain. No debate.

If you want to look at sexism in the Labour Party, the transgender issue is a good one to look at. Because it is absolutely blatant.

Consider the efforts made by the Party to fast-track men who identify as women into positions of power. Labour has already fielded 3 TIMs as Parliamentary candidates.

Then consider the efforts made by Labour to fast-track women who identify as men. Nada.

I also agree we will see a woman who identifies as a man before we see a woman as Labour leader. Wonder if HH would be happy with that.

ChattyLion · 24/03/2018 09:03

Sonic I think you are right. TW would be seen as less likely to pose any issues by actually leading on women’s issues like pregnancy and childcare at work, abortion rights for NI women, funding research on better kinds of contraception for women, more women’s sports funding, putting in public health policy measures to stop women feeling they are not able to exercise or walk alone (and at no financial cost) in public spaces like parks, for fear of male attack.. list goes on.

Despite the apparent solidarity of the ‘TW=W’ mantra.
The female experience would still be obscured and unsupported. The male brocialists would love it cos any woman not cheerleading this ‘progressive’ ‘inclusive’ appointment would then be silence-able as fair game for denigrating and for writing off as irrelevant dinosaurs blinkered by biological sex.

Also TBF I feel neither a transwoman nor a woman political leader would be able to pull off a woman-centred progressive agenda unless there were loads more women in senior politics to support it and the whole culture voters and politicians exist in general becomes less sexist.

Harriet Harman feels to me like she’s trying to break that chicken and egg negative stalemate by forcing a debate so absolutely good on her. Flowers
Also it’s a way of having a dig at Corbyn and hoisting Labour men by their own petard which is good to see as so many are such hypocrites about diversity when it comes to women..
I hope Harriet’s call gets picked up more widely in the media so we can see how it is positively responded to, treated as an interesting thought experiment, or used against her, and by whom. We could ask MNHQ to ask her in for more discussion in a web chat which might give it some more oxygen?

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 24/03/2018 08:31

Interesting.

I haven't RTFT yet (I will), but my first thought was, if 51% of the population was black, and Labour had never had a black leader, and someone said "this is ridiculous, we need to change this. For our next leader we are going to vote for the best candidate out of this pool of 50% of our people so the candidate is definitely black" then I don't think anyone could think that was a bad thing and I think the party (men) would be on board with it so long as it was a black man.

Men will be annoyed about this and think its unfair on them (if it happens, doubt it will), but what they need to remember is that for the last many decades, the rule has effectively been the opposite: "we must pick our next leader out of this pool of white, middle-aged, middle-class, men". They've already had a long period of time where they got to have a run at it without having to go up against anyone "other". Now it is time to share.

(I also think, if this happens, it will be a trans woman. That will keep both the Woke Penis Feministsâ„¢ and the men happy, especially the men who think a women-only leadership contest would be unfair)

ChattyLion · 24/03/2018 07:35

Critequal I agree with your post. I don’t think the Tories are woman friendly particularly more than the other parties at all, their female PMs have tended to rise when there is economic and social shit to clean up after.

On the other hand I have hope that having a female PM is a great inspiration for girls. If not always great (dependent on that female PM’s policies..) for the adult women affected by the ruling party’s policies day-to-day in her life and work.

But then what a risk to a female PM it would be for her to be seen as putting in policies that are too pro-woman or pro- mother or pro-family. It would be her Emperors New Clothes movement- ‘but you’re noting but a woman!/mother!’ and she’d be out. Hence they always seem to have very male cabinets behind them. So the woman at the top is seen to have men’s agreement and backing.

I think anyway actually what we are talking about is the difference not between women vs men necessarily always, but often the differences between mothers vs everyone else.

I think being a Tory attracts a mix of political tribes, not all mutually exclusive.

These include those with a sense of alienation from the left from what they feel is its constant political personal policing, the libertarian side. IME these Tories are not less sexist at all in general but they can be happy to concede where an individual woman has proved her worth in terms of the job.

Just not at all happy if she then also wants any systematic protections or recognition of the systemic disadvantages she (and all women) faces from well, sexism. You know the type who dismiss women complaining of sexual harassment, assault and even rape of ‘well, that’s just bad sex that she regretted the next day’.

They are so obsessed with the political ideal individual freedom they are blind to the realities of oppression per class (of eg women.) and they also can’t see their own privilege and think everyone else is as free an actor as they feel and know themselves to be. So bad consequences (like not being able to get a job for example) are the just punishment of bad personal choices. Shrug shoulders.

Then there are those with a sense of history via their expensive public school education who venerate the ‘Virgin Queen’ model that Thatcher kind of transformed herself into. Those with a strong Christian religious background who gravitate towards the Tories will also appreciate the iconographic aspect of a singular woman leader who is not like other women, who has qualities that shine out above the mass of women, existing on a weird, special non-venal plane. Both of these groups also recognise today’s Queen Elizabeth as a hero which legitimises that idea somewhat and I worry what will happen when she, and her symbolic example has passed on.

I mean, think of a prominent Tory like Jacob Rees Mogg. Would a woman who has had that many kids ever have a cats chance of making it in politics, Conservative or any party? Fuck no.

She’d be shot down as a shit mother for not being at home and ignoring the demands of her kids’ and probably secretly hated for having said yes to sex that many times too, or something. There is not and can’t be any female equivalent of someone like him. Because the view of what (particularly) mothers should do and are for, is so rigid.

When I see the male politicians bigging it up about how much they love their families and how they sneak off from their powerful jobs to read their kids a bedtime story (I think Obama said he did this in the White House) they all get loads of love from the media for being fantastic human guys and making it easier for modern families and encouraging men to be dads and breaking down barriers and generally being bloody amazing heroes for taking a bit of time off to do something fun with their kids. (They never seem to say- ‘I always make sure get home in time to shop for and cook and clean up the kids’ dinners every night’’ [hmmm]).

I just look on this and just feel depressed because I know even me making similar claims or admissions about ^my own* job (not senior/Board level, not elected) would be looked at askance like I wasn’t doing my job properly, let alone being feted as some kind of Uber parent. You must be joking. And a female PM/President could never go anywhere NEAR that kind of talk.

To be fair to Tories I don’t think I have seen this superdad claim much from hard right wingers. That’s more a Cameroonian seeking to be seen as centrist position, But it seems pervasive among powerful left-wingers. And they even like to hint (or boast if they are Tont Blair) about themselves as loving husbands and sexual beings too- good luck doing that as a woman in politics.

The hard right don’t tend to make claims about being ‘hands on’ while they do often publicly put their wives and families on a pedestal, which often fits with the further right-wing’s being very open about their appreciation of rigid gender roles. (And often seeking to enforce them on others).

I just can’t see any female president or PM being able to boast about sneaking off to have special time with her kids or spouse (she couldn’t not be married) as being lauded. It would be used against her an example about how she was fucking up her kids by putting her career first, and to make her out to be mentally unstable: ‘female PM’s secret tornent at separation from her kids’.

I’m not normally cynical this many times before breakfast, but I really feel that how a lot of people see political leadership and motherhood have it so stacked against anyone that wants to combine both in a visible way. Sorry for the massive essay but it really fucks me off because if a woman PM or President COULD do that and tell us about it freely, with no punishment to follow, it would be absolutely revolutionary for other working mothers.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 24/03/2018 05:13

It's an interesting move. She must be testing sexism - and see who outs their true colours by their refusal to give anything up

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 24/03/2018 00:58

Started reading a bit about Iceland. Sorry its only the Guardian comic.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/06/iceland-women-government-better-for-mothers-america-lessons

LightofaSilveryMoon · 24/03/2018 00:30

Looking at Teresa May's history - post Brexit - I think the whole of UK politics is totally inadequate and unfeasible.

Women (like T. May, e.g) are set up for positions where men have fucked up and don't know what to do. So they employ a woman to try to clean up the shit.... Haven't we heard that story before?A situation where someone must take blame? - Appoint a woman!

Bleuugh!

Ditto what HH is now trying to say.

Caucho · 23/03/2018 22:49

I do think there should be some sort of ‘effort’ for a female leader but that road needs to be tread very carefully and don’t know how you could do it without it becoming public. I don’t think there is an outstanding female candidate in the Labour Party currently but don’t think there’s an outstanding male one either! Ditto Tories, Lib Dems et all. I despair at the quality of our current crop of politicians on a cross party basis

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 22:41

Why oh why do women spend so much time talking their selves out of things instead of talking their selves into things. Wonder if that makes any difference to the gender pay gap. Mmmm, thinks seriously about that question to her self. Decides to keep quiet.

Caucho · 23/03/2018 22:38

I realise this is the feminist board but would take umbrage if I had a leader thrust upon me due to such policy and would be tempted to vote against as a hissy fit. Was one of the main reasons Hilary Clinton lost. Vote for me because I’m a woman. I agree that poor male candidates should step aside when they’re average though. Yvette Cooper would have been a better bet then Corbyn but would have never have won the leadership election against Corbyn. They’re worse than the Tories in that respect despite claiming to be left wing, inclusive etc. Look at the trade unions

Caucho · 23/03/2018 22:27

I think the Daily Mail and others would have a field day. Such and such leader only voted leader on the basis of blah blah....it would be a massive stick. I’m thinking like a man and you’re thinking like a woman. You can’t win an election if you only appeal to one sex

deydododatdodontdeydo · 23/03/2018 22:24

Agree with Caucho, there would be so many people waiting with glee for the inevitable failures to blame the way she was elected.
Thing is, any election, most men do stand aside, there's only 2 or 3 who stand. And it only take one for men to not have stepped aside.
When Milliband was elected would have been a good time, because the male candidates were so pathetically poor.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 22:09

I don't fully agree that the press would ridicule, this is the year of the gender pay gap and business is taking that seriously. The are actively having to track the reasons why they have this problem.

Political parties are always seem to be behind the curve on this. I think it's because they are so dependent on lobbyists for policy (who is going to lobby about equality other than Stonewall?).

WEP moved into his space. I've got a meeting with a new branch set up tomorrow. I know about the TIMS. I am going to talk about WEP lobbying.

FeministBadger · 23/03/2018 21:46

Totally agree CritEqual - I've never been tribal with politics although I am left leaning but I'm feeling increasingly politically homeless in no small part due to the continual and hypocritical misogyny of the Labour Party. It does make me want to look for answers as to what is going wrong for women on the left, and what's working on the right.

Half my doubtfulness is that I have no academic feminism so it's just basic reading and experience based - hence wondering if other posters can be enlightening. And then I also wonder whether I'm being unrealistic about the success in the Conservative party and it's just been one woman with May being thrown a shitty stick.

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