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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women

340 replies

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 18:44

Although I applaud the audacity and bravery of the women who decided to identify as men and use the mens' changing room at the Dulwich Leisure Centre, sadly their campaign is misguided and is likely to lead to harm to cisgendered women.

The only law in England and Wales that gives someone who was born male the right to use female spaces, such as changing rooms, is the Equality Act. On the face of it the act only applies to those who propose to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassigned their gender. To understand how it is interpreted though you need to look at the case law. The leading case is Croft v Royal Mail and although it applied to an earlier statute in a slightly different context, it is still good law. This case held that a transwomen would only acquire the right to use the women's toilet at work when she was significantly advanced in her transition.

So the law today does not allow men (or women) to self-id their way into the opposite gender's changing room. And the government has stated that it is not going to change the Equality Act so the law in this area will not change. And as far as I know, no pervert has succeeded in using the Equality Act to access a changing room in the 7 years that the Equality Act 2010 has been law.

The government has announced however that it is considering simplifying the process of changing legal gender under the Gender Recognition Act. However, and this is the crucial point, if a man changes his legal gender to female it does not give him access to female spaces.

There is a myth that with self-identification a man would be allowed to say that he is a women - say on Friday afternoons. However, nothing could be further from the truth. If the process in Ireland is followed a legal instrument - a statutory declaration - has to be filled out in front of a solicitor or other suitably qualified person. And the wording has to say he has a "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of female for the rest of [his] life". And lying on a statutory declaration in the UK is a criminal offence - punishable with up to 2 years in prison under the Perjury Act.

If a man were to change to his legal gender to female and sneak his way into the women's changing room it would still not prevent him from committing the offences of Voyeurism and Exposure. Both of these offences are drafted in gender neutral terms.

Not only is the Man Friday campaign unnecessary, it is positively harmful. The constant stream of articles in the media saying that men can identify as women on a Friday and use the women's changing rooms have two effects. Firstly, people who work in leisure centres believe this to be the law and stop challenging creepy guys trying to access the women's changing room. Secondly, it gives perverts the idea that they have the legal right to perform perverted acts. (they don't and these acts remain criminal offences)

And this is not just a theoretical analysis - this actually happened in Seattle, Washington. After a prolonged Republican media campaign stating that a new law allowed perverts to access the women's changing room, a man took them at their word and, claiming rights under the new law, decided to change with the women. And the sad thing is that the staff confused by the media coverage did nothing to stop him. But the kicker is that the new law did not allow a man to self-id his way into the women's changing room. And this is not my legal analysis - this is the legal analysis of the Washington State Human Rights Commission.

So in summary women's spaces are not threatened by either the current law or the government's proposed changes. However, if the Man Friday campaign plants the idea into people's minds that men can self-id their way into women's changing rooms, then expect to see perverts take them up on the idea.

OP posts:
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SarahAr · 22/03/2018 22:37

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth

I don't have access to plc. Agree it is pretty reliable. And it is a fair argument that Croft as a whole is no longer good law as the requirement for medical supervision has now gone.

OP posts:
gingergenius · 22/03/2018 22:31

Here's a trans woman absolutely nailing why women are feeling threatened. A trans woman. She seems lovely and I have every respect for her. She gets why women are unhappy.

titchy · 22/03/2018 22:29

Grinassigned

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women
thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 22/03/2018 22:29

I think the OP is entitled to come here and make her argument.

She has forced me to (finally) start looking up the law, so thanks for that OP.

Truthfully, I don’t think your arguments hang together because they flow from accepting Croft (as , I accept, did the solicitors’ newsletter you linked to).

Juells · 22/03/2018 22:28

Jesus H Christ on a bike. How many more men are going to be piling in here tonight to put us all right?

titchy · 22/03/2018 22:27

people who are legally men can be held in the female prison estate

You might want to let the judiciary know that they are breaking the law then by allowing men who are legally still men be held in the female estate.

AngryAttackKittens · 22/03/2018 22:23

Go be tedious at SwimEngland instead of us, then, since they're the ones who published guidelines indicating that they don't share your interpretation of the law.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 22/03/2018 22:22

Ok, so maybe former solicitor? Fair enough.

I’m a practising solicitor but it’s also not my area.

I’ve had a quick look at plc (can’t link as it’s subscription only). It says that Croft is probably no longer good law because no medical intervention is required under the EqA 2010 for an individual to be transsexual.

Plc is usually pretty reliable.

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 22:22

WiggyPig

How does s. 9(1) GRA give a man who has changed his legal gender access to female spaces?

In the case of changing rooms it is up to person who manages the facility. If the manager decides that only people born women can use the female changing room regardless of legal gender, then the only recourse the man would have would be to bring an action under the EA.

In the case of prisons, people who are legally men can be held in the female prison estate and people who are legally women can be held in the male prison estate. Legal gender is a factor taken into account by the authorities but it is not determinative.

Regarding Seattle. My point here was that misunderstanding of the law led to the staff at a leisure centre allowing a sexual offence to occur.

OP posts:
gamerchick · 22/03/2018 22:18

Man I swear to jebus if any clever twat IRL tries to call me cis anything I’ll put them on their arse. It’s really irritating just bloody stobbit! Angry

PositivelyPERF · 22/03/2018 22:16

I also don't claim to be an expert in this area of law

So you could be talking shite and not actually be aware that you’re talking shite? OK, thanks for clearing that up.

AngryAttackKittens · 22/03/2018 22:15

I "fantacise" about men who can spell, personally.

Terfmore · 22/03/2018 22:13

Cis gendered?????

Sensefinder · 22/03/2018 22:13

This reply has been deleted

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AngryAttackKittens · 22/03/2018 22:13

It's interesting to watch the attempts to shut down dissent evolve over time, no? Most of our resident sealions seem to have either moved on or changed names, and the sealioning was already an evolution from the earlier failed "begone, vile bigots!" tactic. Now apparently they've moved on to IANAL but let me splain how the law works even though we can all see that it's not working that way at all, it's just that I'm very concerned about "cisgendered" women you see, which is not a tell, oh no, everyone writes in this weird, stilted, jargon-y way.

Sensefinder · 22/03/2018 22:05

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SarahAr · 22/03/2018 22:04

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth.

I am not a law student or practicing lawyer but I am legally qualified. I also don't claim to be an expert in this area of law. I would be interested in seeing any alternative opinions of the law in this area.

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 22/03/2018 22:03

@SarahAr Whatever your beliefs about how its illegal and unlikely and can never happen, the fact is that Labours All Women Shortlists and Women's Officer positions are now open to anyone who 'identifies' as a woman.

Can you see why that is a problem for women?

CadyHeron · 22/03/2018 22:03

Sarahar, are you a law student? Absolutely nothing wrong with that but I’d be glad to know if you don’t mind saying

Maybe OP identifies as one.

JessicaJonesJacket · 22/03/2018 22:01

I'm concerned about university standards if OP is a law student. Maybe they're a professional man but an amateur lawyer.

MistressDeeCee · 22/03/2018 22:00

But (5)The idea that a man could claim he identified as a woman and therefore has the right to use the women's changing room is laughable

You don't get out much do you?

Someone missed the memo that writing loads of words does not equate to clever and/or informed.

That's like asking us to believe a penis and balls-intact bloke in a dress is a woman

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 22:00

UpstartCrow - men can access the women's bathing pond on Hampstead Heath, not because the law gives them this right, but because the authorities who manage the bathing pond have decided to permit it.

My argument is that is this is not an issue with the law as it is today or with the current government proposals to change it.

OP posts:
Juells · 22/03/2018 21:59

Who's laughing? I don't see anyone...

IdotsInCharge · 22/03/2018 21:59

If this was a law essay, then I think a 2.2

Remind me, what is the adage about men estimating their skill level?

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