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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women

340 replies

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 18:44

Although I applaud the audacity and bravery of the women who decided to identify as men and use the mens' changing room at the Dulwich Leisure Centre, sadly their campaign is misguided and is likely to lead to harm to cisgendered women.

The only law in England and Wales that gives someone who was born male the right to use female spaces, such as changing rooms, is the Equality Act. On the face of it the act only applies to those who propose to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassigned their gender. To understand how it is interpreted though you need to look at the case law. The leading case is Croft v Royal Mail and although it applied to an earlier statute in a slightly different context, it is still good law. This case held that a transwomen would only acquire the right to use the women's toilet at work when she was significantly advanced in her transition.

So the law today does not allow men (or women) to self-id their way into the opposite gender's changing room. And the government has stated that it is not going to change the Equality Act so the law in this area will not change. And as far as I know, no pervert has succeeded in using the Equality Act to access a changing room in the 7 years that the Equality Act 2010 has been law.

The government has announced however that it is considering simplifying the process of changing legal gender under the Gender Recognition Act. However, and this is the crucial point, if a man changes his legal gender to female it does not give him access to female spaces.

There is a myth that with self-identification a man would be allowed to say that he is a women - say on Friday afternoons. However, nothing could be further from the truth. If the process in Ireland is followed a legal instrument - a statutory declaration - has to be filled out in front of a solicitor or other suitably qualified person. And the wording has to say he has a "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of female for the rest of [his] life". And lying on a statutory declaration in the UK is a criminal offence - punishable with up to 2 years in prison under the Perjury Act.

If a man were to change to his legal gender to female and sneak his way into the women's changing room it would still not prevent him from committing the offences of Voyeurism and Exposure. Both of these offences are drafted in gender neutral terms.

Not only is the Man Friday campaign unnecessary, it is positively harmful. The constant stream of articles in the media saying that men can identify as women on a Friday and use the women's changing rooms have two effects. Firstly, people who work in leisure centres believe this to be the law and stop challenging creepy guys trying to access the women's changing room. Secondly, it gives perverts the idea that they have the legal right to perform perverted acts. (they don't and these acts remain criminal offences)

And this is not just a theoretical analysis - this actually happened in Seattle, Washington. After a prolonged Republican media campaign stating that a new law allowed perverts to access the women's changing room, a man took them at their word and, claiming rights under the new law, decided to change with the women. And the sad thing is that the staff confused by the media coverage did nothing to stop him. But the kicker is that the new law did not allow a man to self-id his way into the women's changing room. And this is not my legal analysis - this is the legal analysis of the Washington State Human Rights Commission.

So in summary women's spaces are not threatened by either the current law or the government's proposed changes. However, if the Man Friday campaign plants the idea into people's minds that men can self-id their way into women's changing rooms, then expect to see perverts take them up on the idea.

OP posts:
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swivelchair · 23/03/2018 06:28

In relation to the millions of men who gave their lives selfishly for our freedoms, includkng yours, I think your comment are highly disrespectful and distasteful.

It has persisted throughout recorded history, that the number of civilian casualties in a war pretty much equals the number of combatant casualties.

thebewilderness · 23/03/2018 03:44

thebewilderness, I'm quite disappointed by your term 'male violence' when women have won the right to fight alongside men.

The greatest human rights crisis the world has ever know is male violence. That is an undeniable fact. The only people men kill more often than women are other men.
Your disappointment is irrelevant.

AngryAttackKittens · 23/03/2018 03:33

I want a mute troll button, so that I don't have to go to the effort of scrolling past their pointless wanking.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 02:46

We don't hate transwomen. We hate the evidence we are being given daily that we are not worthy of an opinion. Please don't think that gender ID idea is what every one thinks. We really don't. And you know as well as I do that the vulnerable are vulnerable. The debate is not about a fear or hatred of transwomen. Some men are awful, some women are awful, there a lots of awful humans full stop. We are talking about the awful people that are holding themselves up as role models and that is not all transwomen. Please listen to the balanced posts, people do vent here I know but we actually want a fair solution for all.

RosemaryHoight · 23/03/2018 02:46

Oh dear op. If you were my son I'd be ashamed. Maybe you think that my son is a girl. I'd still be ashamed.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 02:34

You know I want programmes on TV about the entire worlds infrastructure history and you would think when you do that there are only men on the planet. You never see a woman. Why is that? Because we wanted to stay home and paint our nails? We were legally disenfranchised, laws were set up to make it illegal for us to own property, to work, to do anything without male permission. We were deliberately excluded. We had to marry to eat. To be alive.
I joined the Royal Navy in 1981 aged 19 and I was put on a woman's pays scale and given a skirt to wear, on a fucking airfield. I had to find some men's uniform small enough to fit me to avoid the skin on my legs being melted off by tights in case of an avcat fire. This was frowned upon and complained about, I should be wearing stockings and suspenders to entertain the men like a proper dolly bird. I was molested daily at work by my team mates , it was fucking mandatory. So give us a break with this please, we were not all at home having vapours because we wanted to, we were driven mad by the forced captivity. Now even zoo animals are recognised as not being happy in those conditions. We don't despise you, we are just done to death with it. I have three brothers brought up in that era, none of whom can relate to women properly because we no longer submit and my heart breaks for them. But this structural inequality is not something we asked for, it was imposed on us. Because we breed, because we are smaller, and because we can be pushed around.

Goodnight.

FlatKraken · 23/03/2018 02:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 02:19

Yawn

Sensefinder · 23/03/2018 02:15

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Sensefinder · 23/03/2018 01:52

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Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 01:12

Patterned shirts and loose fitting trousers will help you hide any curves.

That's a normal day for most women I know.

thebewilderness · 23/03/2018 01:10

Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known. If women talk about the men call us anti male.

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

AngryAttackKittens · 23/03/2018 01:10

It's bad enough that children are taught indirectly to conform to stereotypes without the kind of literal "here are some stereotypes, please try to act them out even if they don't feel natural at all" shite above.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 01:03

Sadly our young boys are being force fed this gender ideology. Luckily my two young men see it for what it is. Women here are entitled to be concerned, and be firm in our behaviour. Or are we just resentful?

This is what the NHS guide advises girls:
www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/assets/media/17-15-02-A-Guide-For-Young-People.pdf

Trans men: A short back and sides from the barber is the most masculine haircut you can get, so it may be a good place to start. However, keep in mind many men these days have many different haircuts with all lengths. Haircuts look most masculine if the sideburns are cut straight across as opposed to at a pointed angle.
If you’re concerned about what to say the first time, tell the barber you’re playing a boy in a play. Be aware, not many places will cut more than a foot of hair off in one go, especially if you’re young. If you have very long hair you could donate it to a charity like www.locksoflove.org. Wear clothes meant for boys/men.
Patterned shirts and loose fitting trousers will help you hide any curves. A reliable binder like one from ftm.underworks.com will help give you a male-appearing chest. Generally men are more confident and firm in their behavior. They usually take up more space and use calm, firm gestures. Use a more even tone when speaking, as women tend to vary pitch more. To make your voice sound deeper/more resonant, put your hand on your chest and try to get the sound to reverberate there.

AngryAttackKittens · 23/03/2018 01:01

My orientation is northeastwards. Respect it or else!

CadyHeron · 23/03/2018 00:50

I hope that the anti male resentment doesn't pan down to our young boys who are quite defenceless

Can you expand on that? Not entirely sure what you're getting at...

IfNot · 23/03/2018 00:44

I think there could be some great discussions between men, women and other orientations.

The worst kind of men are the ones who think they are dead intelligent, but in actual fact are thick as pigshit.
As a professional woman I often find them the most disappointing Sad

Sensefinder · 23/03/2018 00:39

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thebewilderness · 23/03/2018 00:17

Clearly this d00d never wandered into AIBU unprepared.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 00:16
There no chicks with dicks, only guys with tits.
CadyHeron · 23/03/2018 00:14

Who would have thought the fluffy website called 'Mumsnet' would actually be a hive of hardened feminists

Grin

1 - First time I've ever been called a hardened feminist. A few months ago I was being accused of being an MRA and a handmaiden on here for saying I like men and they're not always bad. Sticking up for them on threads and have always hidden the feminist boards.
Shows how the tide turns, when it comes to finding out I've been lumped into "cis" woman and reading all the utter bonkerness, and Self ID madness, I'm now a hardened feminist. I'll take that Grin

2 - you really don't know MN if you think it's full of fluff. There's sensible,nice posting men on here too.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 00:13

Mantastic

thebewilderness · 23/03/2018 00:08

-2 for failing to stick the flounce.

Sensefinder · 23/03/2018 00:06

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AngryAttackKittens · 22/03/2018 23:55

Let's just not talk about the suspicious stains that he was hoping the coat would hide.