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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women

340 replies

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 18:44

Although I applaud the audacity and bravery of the women who decided to identify as men and use the mens' changing room at the Dulwich Leisure Centre, sadly their campaign is misguided and is likely to lead to harm to cisgendered women.

The only law in England and Wales that gives someone who was born male the right to use female spaces, such as changing rooms, is the Equality Act. On the face of it the act only applies to those who propose to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassigned their gender. To understand how it is interpreted though you need to look at the case law. The leading case is Croft v Royal Mail and although it applied to an earlier statute in a slightly different context, it is still good law. This case held that a transwomen would only acquire the right to use the women's toilet at work when she was significantly advanced in her transition.

So the law today does not allow men (or women) to self-id their way into the opposite gender's changing room. And the government has stated that it is not going to change the Equality Act so the law in this area will not change. And as far as I know, no pervert has succeeded in using the Equality Act to access a changing room in the 7 years that the Equality Act 2010 has been law.

The government has announced however that it is considering simplifying the process of changing legal gender under the Gender Recognition Act. However, and this is the crucial point, if a man changes his legal gender to female it does not give him access to female spaces.

There is a myth that with self-identification a man would be allowed to say that he is a women - say on Friday afternoons. However, nothing could be further from the truth. If the process in Ireland is followed a legal instrument - a statutory declaration - has to be filled out in front of a solicitor or other suitably qualified person. And the wording has to say he has a "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of female for the rest of [his] life". And lying on a statutory declaration in the UK is a criminal offence - punishable with up to 2 years in prison under the Perjury Act.

If a man were to change to his legal gender to female and sneak his way into the women's changing room it would still not prevent him from committing the offences of Voyeurism and Exposure. Both of these offences are drafted in gender neutral terms.

Not only is the Man Friday campaign unnecessary, it is positively harmful. The constant stream of articles in the media saying that men can identify as women on a Friday and use the women's changing rooms have two effects. Firstly, people who work in leisure centres believe this to be the law and stop challenging creepy guys trying to access the women's changing room. Secondly, it gives perverts the idea that they have the legal right to perform perverted acts. (they don't and these acts remain criminal offences)

And this is not just a theoretical analysis - this actually happened in Seattle, Washington. After a prolonged Republican media campaign stating that a new law allowed perverts to access the women's changing room, a man took them at their word and, claiming rights under the new law, decided to change with the women. And the sad thing is that the staff confused by the media coverage did nothing to stop him. But the kicker is that the new law did not allow a man to self-id his way into the women's changing room. And this is not my legal analysis - this is the legal analysis of the Washington State Human Rights Commission.

So in summary women's spaces are not threatened by either the current law or the government's proposed changes. However, if the Man Friday campaign plants the idea into people's minds that men can self-id their way into women's changing rooms, then expect to see perverts take them up on the idea.

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RunRabbitRunRabbit · 23/03/2018 21:55

I desperately tried to have hair like the V women when I was a teenager. I ended up with a perm that looked like I had a boiled squirrel on my head. Am not squirrel-identifying it's just that my hair had transitioned temporarily. It got bette.

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women
LastGirlOnTheLeft · 23/03/2018 21:47

Wasn't it brilliant Pickle?? It was so entertaining...the people who thought the aliens were just like us and meant us no harm were seen to be either evil or just plain dim. Either way, the rebellion had to go underground because it was too dangerous to be seen to be against the interlopers. But they won in the end.

It's so weird how it has parallels today.

picklemepopcorn · 23/03/2018 21:29

I remember V!

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 23/03/2018 20:51

It all reminds me of that mini series V that was on in the 80s...do you remember?? It was spread over five nights and the nation was glued! The story was aliens had taken on the appearance of human beings, and came with the (false) message that they were allies and that they meant no harm.

At some point an intrepid reporter saw the truth - they were wearing humans like a costume, aping them and pretending to be like them, when their real intention was to get rid of us! This reporter (Mike Donovan aka Marc Singer) joined forces with a hated group of rebels, called The Rebellion, to try to bring the truth to people before it was too late!!

V for Victory!!!

picklemepopcorn · 23/03/2018 20:43

I do find it uncomfortable being aligned with people I usually have diametrically opposed views to!

PositivelyPERF · 23/03/2018 20:34

I’m now imagining the new fluffybunny feminists. Do we have to wear ears at the next women’s meeting? 🐰

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 23/03/2018 20:27

Yes, bewilder I also find it amazing. The transwomen are women thing reminds me so very much of religious zealotry. Faith valued over truth.

Loyalty valued over competency too. I shudder slightly when posters wring their hands over having the same opinion on one topic as a person/publication/party whose opinion they dislike on a different topic. Engage brain not tribal loyalty!

thebewilderness · 23/03/2018 18:42

As a hardened Feminist may I just say how proud I am to be in such hardened Feminist company on the Mumsnet fluffbunny forum.

p.s. It never ceases to amaze me the way some people cling ever tighter to their world view the more evidence to the contrary they are presented with. It is a fatal flaw in either our nature or our conditioning, or possibly both.

SnibbleAgain · 23/03/2018 16:22

xposts

crap comparison made in order to trivialise the global issue of death and permanent injury due to lack of reproductive options for women

Better comparison would be black men being incarcerated en masse for years in USA or something but weirdly that's never the sorts of comparison they make. Huh. Almost like they don't actually care about men, it's about minimsing what is done to women...

SnibbleAgain · 23/03/2018 16:19

That's really pissed me off which I'm sure was the intent.

Fucking trolls making light of what that poor girl went through. Not a word of concern, just "bad things happen to men too so that makes it all even".

yeah no in this case, it really doesn't.

slug · 23/03/2018 16:19

Added to which, the man (if he exists, does he have a name?) killed himself. The girl was the victim of the state. She had no agency in what happened to her. First raped, then she died as a result of being forced to carry her rapist's child to term.

There is a large degree of difference between the two examples.

SnibbleAgain · 23/03/2018 16:18

Also "exactly the same" is being falsely accused of rape, and actually being raped. In fact, the former can be considered to be worse. By a certain type of man. Even if, as in this case, it's not just rape, but forced pregnancy leading to severe illness, incredible pain, and then death.

I can't imagine the baby that is left is going to have a particularly easy life either.

It's a false equivalence. The boy decided to kill himself, which is awful. the girl was effectively murdered by the state because the state does not value her as a full person. Not the same thing at all.

SnibbleAgain · 23/03/2018 16:16

"Slug, just like the man who took his life after being maliciously accused of false rape. "

Is it exactly the same?
The girl who died, it was a state sanctioned entirely avoidable death, which happened because the state view girls and women including victims of sexual abuse as nothing more than vessels.

Go and find out for me how many men die a year due to false rape accusations, and how many women die every year due to state sanctioned blocks to reprodcutive healthcare provision.

Then you can take those stats and tell me how my boys under 16 and how many girls under 16 died of these respective causes.

Then come and tell me it is "exactly the same".

It is only exactly the same to men who value male lives multiples higher than female lives.

picklemepopcorn · 23/03/2018 15:32

I've been ignoring this thread, but it keeps popping up, so here goes: manfriday does not harm cisgendered women. There is no such thing as a cisgendered woman.

There are women, and everyone else. That is the point.

Willow2017 · 23/03/2018 15:28

I am a WOMAN not a freaking ciswoman whatever the fuck that is.

I dont need a man to tell me what I am thanks, I have lived with this for a long time and all the crap that comes with being a woman. I think I know better than some bloke telling me what being a woman means.

So no man ever got anywhere pretending to be a woman...what about that rapist who 'ids' as a woman to get into a womans prison then had to be segregated as he was making unwanted advances on the women prisoners? Gosh who would have seen that coming?
What about the leisure centres, especially swimming pools, that have been told to accept self id to 'enocurage diversity' in sport.
What about the men who are now competing in womens sports and beating them due to them being genetically different, having a different muscalature because...errrrm they are MEN?
What about the Scottish Gov slipping a new law in that basically says a man who ids as a woman will get preferential treatment in work applications due to their protected characteristic? Even if the woman also applying has better qualifications. That they aim to have 50/50 male and female people on committes, boards etc even if one of the 'women' is a MAN!

Get your head out the sand and maybe ask some women about their experiences in the workplace and the street and the world. Many men think its their right to harass us, comment on us, put us down and if we bite back we are whiney bitches who cant take a freaking joke.

I dont need a man telling me how a woman feels. They dont have a freaking clue.

Go give your head a wobble, we do not need educating by some mansplaining self absorbed misogynist.

Tanith · 23/03/2018 15:25

“So there should be at least a handful of transwomen on the Labour all-women shortlists; don't be greedy now, equality for all.”

True equality for all would mean more all-woman shortlists created, some of which are open to transwomen.
Strange that only women are expected to share their precious few places and men are not affected in any way. Some might say that Equality is not the goal after all.

IllBeAtTheBarIfYouNeedMe · 23/03/2018 15:14

I’m a little bit saddened I missed the professional mans meltdown. I knew it was coming. I was just waiting. And then I missed it.

Story of my life.

I doth my cap to you all ladies chaps. Hilariously handled

LangCleg · 23/03/2018 15:07

It doesn't take long, does it?

PositivelyPERF · 23/03/2018 14:51

I was having a stressful day, but just sat down for a coffee and Mumsnet. How could you all upset that poor man? 😢 You didn’t appreciate his professional advice and now you’ve gone and ‘made him’ get angry. Didn’t you know that for every angry man you stand up to, an MRA scrotum shrivels up and dies?

Contented sigh ☕️ 🍪 🍪😁

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 14:48

Lots of laughs though eh.

Datun · 23/03/2018 14:46

Strewth, that was even more predictable than I anticipated.

And much quicker than normal.

The next post, should there be one, will be loaded with extra misogyny and contain the words...hold on...ah yes...cunt and/or bitch.

Or possibly c*t and b*ch because, I'm sure professional man will be absolutely aghast that he is allowed to swear on here amongst, you know, grown-up women.

Or possibly witch. Vipers maybe?

AsAProfessionalFekko · 23/03/2018 14:38

Don't disturb the Professional Man, he has Important Professional Man Stuff to do.

TerfsUp · 23/03/2018 14:31

Professional Man, please don't tell me you're flouncing. We've been having so much fun.

UpstartCrow · 23/03/2018 14:30

Sensefinder
I'll give you a heads up, killing women isnt a great way to 'control' us.
2 women a week in the UK, 3 a day in the US. It isnt working as an example to the rest of us.
Maybe men could try being more law abiding and less violent.

Also, this isn't an angry mob. If your sensibilities are that delicate, maybe you'd prefer the kind of uncritical support you'd get on a men's support forum.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 14:29

He's told us:

"You shouldn't be listened too."