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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women

340 replies

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 18:44

Although I applaud the audacity and bravery of the women who decided to identify as men and use the mens' changing room at the Dulwich Leisure Centre, sadly their campaign is misguided and is likely to lead to harm to cisgendered women.

The only law in England and Wales that gives someone who was born male the right to use female spaces, such as changing rooms, is the Equality Act. On the face of it the act only applies to those who propose to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassigned their gender. To understand how it is interpreted though you need to look at the case law. The leading case is Croft v Royal Mail and although it applied to an earlier statute in a slightly different context, it is still good law. This case held that a transwomen would only acquire the right to use the women's toilet at work when she was significantly advanced in her transition.

So the law today does not allow men (or women) to self-id their way into the opposite gender's changing room. And the government has stated that it is not going to change the Equality Act so the law in this area will not change. And as far as I know, no pervert has succeeded in using the Equality Act to access a changing room in the 7 years that the Equality Act 2010 has been law.

The government has announced however that it is considering simplifying the process of changing legal gender under the Gender Recognition Act. However, and this is the crucial point, if a man changes his legal gender to female it does not give him access to female spaces.

There is a myth that with self-identification a man would be allowed to say that he is a women - say on Friday afternoons. However, nothing could be further from the truth. If the process in Ireland is followed a legal instrument - a statutory declaration - has to be filled out in front of a solicitor or other suitably qualified person. And the wording has to say he has a "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of female for the rest of [his] life". And lying on a statutory declaration in the UK is a criminal offence - punishable with up to 2 years in prison under the Perjury Act.

If a man were to change to his legal gender to female and sneak his way into the women's changing room it would still not prevent him from committing the offences of Voyeurism and Exposure. Both of these offences are drafted in gender neutral terms.

Not only is the Man Friday campaign unnecessary, it is positively harmful. The constant stream of articles in the media saying that men can identify as women on a Friday and use the women's changing rooms have two effects. Firstly, people who work in leisure centres believe this to be the law and stop challenging creepy guys trying to access the women's changing room. Secondly, it gives perverts the idea that they have the legal right to perform perverted acts. (they don't and these acts remain criminal offences)

And this is not just a theoretical analysis - this actually happened in Seattle, Washington. After a prolonged Republican media campaign stating that a new law allowed perverts to access the women's changing room, a man took them at their word and, claiming rights under the new law, decided to change with the women. And the sad thing is that the staff confused by the media coverage did nothing to stop him. But the kicker is that the new law did not allow a man to self-id his way into the women's changing room. And this is not my legal analysis - this is the legal analysis of the Washington State Human Rights Commission.

So in summary women's spaces are not threatened by either the current law or the government's proposed changes. However, if the Man Friday campaign plants the idea into people's minds that men can self-id their way into women's changing rooms, then expect to see perverts take them up on the idea.

OP posts:
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EmpressOfJurisfiction · 22/03/2018 19:18

It was quite helpful of this OP to stick a red flag in the thread title, though.

Hypermice · 22/03/2018 19:17

If the process in Ireland is followed

It won’t be. Ireland already does things differently - for example male prisoners are always in the male estate regardless of how they identify. In England and Wales Male prisoners can and have self identified into the female estate.

Your post is full of ‘this won’t/can’t/hasnt’ happened Statements - but it will, it can and it has.

ManFriday is, in a polite and dignified way, pointing out the sheer insanity of the proposed changes to the GRA. Changes that will certainly not benefit women (away with your cisgender) and will not benefit transsexuals who have been living quietly among us for years. The ONLY people these changes will benefit are paraphilic males.

Babdoc · 22/03/2018 19:15

We are NOT “cisgendered” women.
There is no such thing. We are just women. Real, biological, female women, with XX chromosomes in every cell, and female genitals.
Anything else is a man. Even if it’s a body dysmorphic man in a dress and lipstick, or any other stupid stereotypical wrappings that the patriarchy think constitute “femininity”. Gender is an artificial social construct. Only sex is real. And unchangeable.
I am getting very angry at the hijacking of language to try and distort the meaning of words and disempower real women.

LangCleg · 22/03/2018 19:11

You're going to have try a bit harder with your plops, you know, OP. Cisgender in the thread title buggered you up before you even got going. Therefore, entire time spent typing all those paragraphs? Wasted.

2/10

SusanBunch · 22/03/2018 19:11

Secondly, it gives perverts the idea that they have the legal right to perform perverted acts. (they don't and these acts remain criminal offences)

Some of the perverted acts are very subtle. Like getting a kick out of being naked in the public showers with girls and women watching. Like 'accidentally' exposing genitals while changing. Like getting sexual pleasure from simply being there in the first place.

AreYouTerfEnough · 22/03/2018 19:10

Do you identify as a man op? That sure is a lot of mansplaining you’re doing there 🤔

morningrunner · 22/03/2018 19:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Testingnamechange1 · 22/03/2018 19:09

Well let’s have agree to have a debate about that shall we?

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

UpstartCrow · 22/03/2018 19:09

Trans activism harms women and transsexuals FTFY.

PositivelyPERF · 22/03/2018 19:08

Oops, the link works. preen 😁

SusanBunch · 22/03/2018 19:08

And as far as I know, no pervert has succeeded in using the Equality Act to access a changing room in the 7 years that the Equality Act 2010 has been law.

Apart from the numerous violent men and perverts who have managed to convince prison authorities to house them in a female prison.

Apart from the violent men and perverts in Canada who used self-ID law to infiltrate a refuge for vulnerable women and children and assaulted them.

Apart from the increase in assaults in gender-neutral changing rooms. Which e.g. Topshop have already brought in.

Apart from the fact that all women shortlists now include anyone who self-IDs as a woman, regardless of GRC.

Apart from the fact that several men now hold the post of women's officer.

Look, the vast majority of trans people do not bother with the GRC. Why would you when you can just put on a dress and be instantly accepted as a real woman? The vast majority have no surgery. The self-ID might not increase the number of GRCs but I am pretty sure that there will be a legal challenge by TRAs at some point that sex-segregation is unlawful and that the EA should be amended. The original consultation report did suggest amending it.

I think the Man Friday campaign is potentially harmful for another reason. Yes, it points out the stupidity of the TRA position but it does not deal with the huge risk that women are subjected to, having men in their spaces. If people just shrug and say 'well what's the issue with having some topless girls at the swimming session', that will fail to reinforce how really fucking dangerous it is to have to share a prison cell with a man or to be housed with a man in a DV refuge. Men are really not adversely affected by having women in their spaces (although I am sure it pisses them off).

TerfsUp · 22/03/2018 19:08

A search of the username @SarahAr turns up no results. So, SarahAr your sole contribution to MN is a huge plop?

I expect you won't be returning to the thread to respond to comments constructively.

PositivelyPERF · 22/03/2018 19:08

www.sexmatters.org.uk/sexmatters.pdf

Could a more knowledgeable poster than me do a link please? Thanks OP, your lies will probably help a few more reach peak trans. There you go. 🥩🥦🥕 Sorry I couldn’t find flowers but I hope you like the meat and two veg.

SlowlyShrinking · 22/03/2018 19:06

Like this

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women
SmufOrTerf · 22/03/2018 19:06

Perf a fairy dies.
The list of things I cannot say or do gets longer every day.

tabulahrasa · 22/03/2018 19:05

It started to begin with because swim England have already made it their policy to allow males self identifying as females to join female clubs...

I’m pretty sure.

The original threads are in here, you could try reading them.

thebewilderness · 22/03/2018 19:05

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

SlowlyShrinking · 22/03/2018 19:04

When I see cis/CIS I think of cooperative insurance services

53rdWay · 22/03/2018 19:03

simply because most places aren't really thinking about the Equality Act.

Indeed. And framing the GRA reform as progressive is inevitably leading to this. How can you expect organisations to maintain sex-segregated places, when the message to the public is increasingly heard as “anyone who says they’re a woman is a woman, and if you have any definition beyond that you’re a gatekeeping bigot”?

gussyfinknottle · 22/03/2018 19:03

Woman. Not cis-gendered woman. Woman.
Get your terminology right.

PositivelyPERF · 22/03/2018 19:00

Every time someone tries to gaslight a woman a fairy dies. 🧚‍♀️

Well, let’s face it, that’s as true as the nonsense you’re coming out with mate. Maybe the OP thinks we’re all silly middle aged, confused women. 🤪

Fekko · 22/03/2018 19:00

There is a myth that with self-identification a man would be allowed to say that he is a women - say on Friday afternoons. However, nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm sure someone will know the name, but there is a serving police officer who does just that and do please google Pippa/Philip Bunch.

AngstySpanksey · 22/03/2018 18:59

Plain old woman/women will do, thanks.

UpstartCrow · 22/03/2018 18:59

So the law today does not allow men (or women) to self-id their way into the opposite gender's changing room

That is a flat out lie.
Maria Miller stated that there is no situation in which it is appropriate to exclude a trans person. I assume you would know who Maria Miller is and why her opinion counts.

TerfsUp · 22/03/2018 18:59

As soon as I read the word 'cis', I knew that the post would be idiocy. And I was right.