Gyms and Gender

I'm uncomfortable about people who post under false pretenses, it makes it hard to know what their agenda is and so how to respond. Why not say that you are a sociology student who also works at a gym (and also works out) in your first post?

I train with my husband so wouldn't be interested in a woman only session or gym, but have lived in areas where that choice is available. Mostly we use 24 hour free weights gyms which I doubt very much I'd go to alone as they are often pretty much empty and used by some fairly intimidating guys. I don't much like gyms with women only sections as IME those sections tend to be very aerobics / fitness machines orientated so a) have nothing I'm too interested in and b) can reinforce the belief that women shouldn't be in the free weights sections, making these default 'men only' areas.

My dh finds the idea of women only sessions or areas offensive but has a friend who chose male only sessions/gyms so acknowledges that men and women might find them helpful even though he thinks that shouldn't be the case. I think it can be hard if you have never been intimidated by the opposite sex to acknowledge that it's mostly not prejudice that motivates people to seek segregation from time to time but rather concerns about dignity or security or indeed a wish for camaraderie sometimes.

For me the important thing is knowing what to expect, so if a session or space is advertised as single sex or women only I expect that to be the case. If it's advertised as mixed sex or silent about sex then I expect the space or session to be designed in such a way that men and women are comfortable and not compromised. I would actively avoid anything advertised as single gender or for 'people identifying as women / self identified women'.

@Charlie11223

On sex and gender, from a biologist point of view:

Sex is biological and determined by your chromosomes- in mammals this is XX for females and XY for males. This will affect your reproductive biology- so XX placental mammals have a womb and lactate, XY mammals have testes and a penis and produce sperm. Some sexes may look obviously different due to secondary sexual characteristics- often used by males for fighting or attracting mates, but in some species the sexes may look very similar from a distance.

In some animals (such as reptiles) sex is determined by factors other than chromosomes. All animals that reproduce sexually have a biological sex- the female produces the eggs (or the larger gamete/sex cell) and the male produces the sperm (or the smaller gamete/sex cell).

In some species, such as clownfish, individuals naturally change sex including all their reproductive biology- this is known as sequential haemaphroditism. It does not occur in mammals.

Some humans (and animals of other species) are born with intersex conditions, meaning they have abnormal sex chromosomes or their secondary sexual characteristics do not match their chromosomes. There are lots of different intersex conditions which can occur in humans, but most are extremely rare.

From a biological perspective it is arguably impossible for a human to change sex, as they cannot change their chromosomes or produce the gametes of the other sex.

Gender is a term that only really applies to humans and refers to behavioural/societal secondary sexual characteristics. Many species have large behavioural differences between the sexes. In humans gender can refer to behavioural differences, lifestyle differences, differences in dress and appearance etc.

In humans, it is thought that some of these differences are caused by biology- e.g. testosterone makes males more aggressive, and some are caused by society e.g. in modern western society it would be unusual to see a male wearing a dress and high heels.

Gender differences are very hard to define, as they change over time- for example in the regency period it was very common to see men wearing make-up, and there are large geographical differences as well (although globalization does have an effect on this). However, in the western world, you can still stereotype the two genders to certain extent. Behavioural traits are part of gender- e.g. men are more likely to be assertive, women are more likely to appease- although this arguably changing in modern society.

Many people view gender as entirely a social construct. As such, you could obviously create more genders within society- but historically in the western world, there have only really been two genders.

Obviously, it is possible to superficially change gender- however it is arguably harder for transgender people to change their behavioural traits to match that of their chosen gender.

I think it's really important to use these terms for their correct meaning, and in biology it is considered very important to use sex when you mean biological sex.

P.S. @Charlie11223. While you are on MN, and since it's an area you are interested in, have you signed this petition yet?

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

It's about getting the government to consult women's groups over potential changes to the Gender Recognition Act. Worth a read.

its completely acceptable for me to being trying to educate myself on a new subject and not know the specific terminology.

Of course. As I stated in my post, you are using the terms sex and gender interchangeably, in they way that most people still do. That said, the difference between the two (in general english, not just in sociology) is pretty fundamental in order to ask the question you are asking.

/As of yet i am unsure if i agree with the statement given. on a basic level i do. Yes there are more genders then male or female - transgender being one of them.

I'm really not sure what this means. To clarify: there are two biological sexes, male and female- anyone who isn't sure about that is nuts. Gender does not exist in any objective sense, it is about classifying cultural norms of behaviour. Some models describe multiple genders, but it's important to keep in mind that they are just sociological models. They will vary depending on the society and era discussed.

My gym is women only. Previous gym the weights section was heavily populated by teenage boys hanging about chatting. I see no issue with women/men only sessions. It's no different to swimming sessions or whatnot.

Do men get as self conscious as women in a gym though?

Yes. We do. I don't know if it's as much, because we aren't 'supposed' to talk about those sorts of feelings, but I suspect it is.

For that reason I imagine there is more demand for women only areas. I don't see a big problem if a gym can only manage a small area for women, not men. I don't think gyms should always have a same sex option, but in big gyms it would be nice if it were possible.

OP, you seem to be using sex and gender interchangeably and I think it's important to be clear in the difference.

Because that's how normal people talk. Depressingly, in the current climate, I think it's important that a sociology student does use the precise terminology.

I am sorry but in my view i don't actually agree with that.

Did you read empress' point clearly. How can you disagree that the term 'sex' means biology and 'gender' means the associated social construct? Those are just the accepted definitions.

I think if you want to know what the people of MN think on the gender/sex issue you should have a look on the rest of the feminism forum- I seem to recall a couple of threads on this topic.

I used to go to a women’s only gym and I loved it. Totally different atmosphere to the mixed gym I go to now.
Far more older women and postnatal women in the women’s only gym.

Unnecessary for me. I also cycle a lot and avoid the women only cycle stuff. We've recently had a Puregym open and it's great. I don't feel intimidated at all by the men. I like the fact that it's open 24 hours for everyone.

Forget all the gender and ID stuff for a second - why can't you survey your actual members and do some market research? It might be that everyone here would love a women's only gym etc but it flops hugely in your area.

well, as long as the gym are prepared to lose members like me, who would be getting less time that I could use the gym, especially if I go with my partner. (and I'll go and join a saner gym). I find it shocking that we are seriously thinking of separate sessions.

Also, I go to the gym with my DH, so how would that work?

There would still be mixed sessions. It wouldn't be much different to how it works at swimming pools that have women only sessions I'd imagine.

OP, you seem to be using sex and gender interchangeably and I think it's important to be clear in the difference. Sex is about biology, gender is about what people identify as. Or claim to identify as.

When you say single-sex, what are you going to do, for instance, if the first one of these people says "I'm a man and I want to join the men's session?

www.google.co.uk/amp/metro.co.uk/2018/03/19/group-women-self-identify-male-infiltrate-men-swim-session-7398106/amp/

Or if the second one wants to be with the women? www.google.co.uk/amp/s/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/10/07/olympia-wa-school-officials-state-gender-identity-provision-overrides-title-ix-equality-for-girls-swim-teams/amp/

Another open plan changing room here, and I would not be happy with any TIM in here, GRC or not. The showers just have frosted doors that are not lockable too.

Yes, changing rooms where I am has one cubicle and otherwise is open plan. For a massive, busy gym. No way would I be happy with any skirt wearing men in there.

One HUGE thing is changing rooms - especially if men are going to be allowed to self ID now - do your changing rooms have proper cubicle areas? Or just open benches? Many women really do not like getting changed out in the open and so many gyms seem to have open plan spaces.

I think small women only/men only areas if you’re going to have any segregated areas you need both. Absolutely agree with the PP above who says that present (but not intrusive) staffing is key as well. I don’t want staff chatting to me and distracting me unless I initiate but I do appreciate having staff present. especially in water areas - I’ve never encountered behaviour that’s made me fearful on the gym floor (plentybof twatty behaviour though) but I have been repeatedly grabbed, perved at etc in pools and steam rooms and I NEVER use hot tubs after seeing men masturbating in them. Frankly the behaviour of some men around pool areas is criminal. You need a lifeguard AND an attendant there imo.

Thanks MrsPratchett. I go to a much nicer gym now and I do feel safer in my new gym. That happened to me 20 years ago in a rather dodgy gym. I think most of the time I put it out my mind.

The only time I won’t use the spa at the gym is during the aqua aerobics classes because then it does seem to be full of men who make me feel uncomfy.

In general though I have no issues

The thing that would influence me most to use a gym is having security such as trustworthy staff around. Ime, incidents happen when men think they can get away with it.

I go to a mixed gym & im happy to train with men around.

(Especially the muscly types!!)

I don't go to the spa though, not sure about sharing a hot tub with strange men.

sorry Josh

Yeah I’ve been assaulted in a gym before. Well in the pool/jacuzzi rather than the actual gym floor but yes it’s made me nervous. I feel safer in the actual gym because normally there’s more people. Sometimes if I’m there early though I’d be scared to go upstairs if nobody else is about incase a bloke gets his knob out and starts wanking over me again.