Pregnant trans men Guardian article

Norbert I got the impression form the article that it was a last resort sort of thing because Tracey couldn’t conceive and the couple desperately wanted a child. Both sexes can be desperate for a child and many couples would move heaven and earth to achieve this.

Babies are treated differently depending on whether people think they're boys or girls

CapnHaddock in what way do you think that relates to gender expectations on that baby's behaviour? It simply doesn't.

Stillscreaming

Women as a class are oppressed and held in low regard due to their biology. That usually means they are given the rough deal, because men are stronger and more able to be the oppressor class. Biological differences such as more testosterone, bigger lungs, more muscle mass, taller frames give men the power - by using violence / sexual violence or threat or peceived threat of it.

If it's gender that makes one a "woman" and women, as a class, worldwide are subservient, housework-focussed, natural carers etc, where the fuck are all the transwomen wanting to validate themselves as women by caring for elderly relatives?

Olennas I think largely we don't disagree; I'm not saying gender isn't a social construct, I'm saying it's a dichotomy.

It is both the external constructs and the internal wilfulness or agency of individuals within groups to display them.

Some people on MN will declare that gender is a social construct as a means of denying that it can be anything at all within a person. That cannot be the case in my opinion, because otherwise it can not have been constructed.

So then is just the question of what is that internal element of gender that makes the "them" feel like "them" as opposed to feeling like "us"? But to say it isn't there at all just doesn't add up.

Or am I just really, really old fashioned that this is just absolutely crazy.

No,just really really sensible and based in reality.

I wanted to ask a question about transmen and pregnancy.

When we are told that we mustn't talk about our female body parts and our periods because it is triggering to transmen and they hate their breasts and periods etc why do some of them then go on to do something they can only do because they were born female? The one thing that will point you out to the rest of the world as being a woman? Because men can't have babies. And if they really really wanted to be a man they wouldn't be getting pregnant would they?

The story about Max was tragic and something that could have happened to me had I been a teenager now. I totally hated puberty and wished I could get rid of my breasts (and periods) right up till I decided I wanted kids. I still don't like them.

I'd be so much happier RatRolyPoly if people talked about identifying with instead of as because that is what to me is what you are describing. There are a set of socially prescribed behaviours for men and for women, some individuals identify more with the behaviours prescribed for the other group than those they are supposed to perform and so they wish they were a part of that group. This seems perfectly understandable and if they stopped there I doubt anyone would object. It's the 'I feel, therefore I am' step that's the problem.

I don't blame the filmmaker for this sycophantic article, I blame the Guardian writer. Reading Jason's thoughts I hear a very common female experience so I empathise with it. Many women reconcile with their bodies during pregnancy. It's one of the reasons why the current trans affirming narrative is so problematic, all those very young women prescribed blockers and hormones so they will never get the chance to experience the strengths of their body and perhaps come to terms with being female but instead exist as facsimiles of men. It feels like such a con.

Although I too can't help but feel bullshit on the clothing woes. During most of pregnancy this individual was taken for a fat bloke. My dh had a significant beer belly for a while, when he stuck it out he looked very pregnant. Buying clothes for him was not an issue so I suspect Jason could have bought large mens clothes without issue until really quite late in pregnancy. I wonder if this part of the story was more to do with possibly difficult feelings about pregnancy and femininity vs masculinity which would also tie into the confusion about power they describe?

Nope. I’ve tried and I just can’t see a problem with this. They sound like a lovely family and it sounds like an interesting film.

Sorry, participation, not collusion. Don't want to misquote

@RatRolyPoly www.facebook.com/bbctwo/videos/10155359731070659/

Babies are treated differently depending on whether people think they're boys or girls. I doubt the babies are colluding

Rat - I doubt many would disagree that there is a large element of collusion in the creation of social constructs, both knowingly and unknowingly. Almost every group of humans, from a kindergarten class to a sports team to a knitting circle to a shed enthusiasts group, creates some sort of shared behaviours and other things that mark out "them" and "us". I'm not following, though, how that might mean that gender is not a social construct.

Still - I wasn't discussing anyone in particular.....?

@ thebewilderness

Are you saying that women, across the world, aren't all doing the shit work?

@OlennasWimple

The term you're using is a slur. i don't suppose that I'm going to convince you to change your language but I would like you to consider it the next time you feel that you're being slurred. We're discussing my friend, who is a funny, approachable, friendly and a fantastic parent, he deserves the same respect that you'd give to anyone else. He doesn't deserve to be dehumanise for anyone's political beliefs.

Close reading will show you, that I haven't actually said that gender isn't a social construct. I've said that it's not a provable fact. Some aspect of gender are most certainly social, others, we don't know.

Anyone who has been around teenagers will know that many are quite lumpen when it comes to describing their emotions and fall back on stereotypes for instance, teenage girls with anorexia often reference fashion magazines and expectations of attractiveness as the reason or trigger for their illness, however, , these are factors that all teenage girls tend to be exposed to and anorexia is usually triggered by a traumatic life event.

That teenagers are unable to express themselves properly doesn't mean that gender is an entirely social construct, it just means that they are, generally, inarticulate. I'm fifty and I can't describe gender as a lived experience, I can talk about my experiences but I can't separate what's 'me', what's 'woman' and what's an external expectation, that I've internalised.

Can I ask a question of anyone who likes to recite "gender is a social construct"; how exactly do you think it was constructed?

I wonder in what way it can have been constructed without recognising that it requires participation from the people involved, hence the dichotomous definition of gender being both the external manifestation AND the internal "willingness" (so to speak) to participate.

Olennas I believe some people cite stereotypical interests as reasons why they knew they were trans because to them they felt they were being drawn to express their allegiance to a particular group, indicating to them that they really were a member of that group in some way. It's called signalling. It doesn't matter what the signs are that one would use to display one's belonging to a particular group, or that the signs are different in different parts of the world; it is the desire to "signal" one's belonging that transpeople are commenting on in these circumstances. Hope that helps.

Oh yawn. Woman who looks a bit blokey gets pregnant ::shock::

Show me a man who can get pregnant, now that would blow my socks off, until then, nothing to see here.

I see. There is no proof because you disregard the proof that does not support your world view. Got it.

StillScreaming - if gender is not cultural, why do many British TIFs say they knew they were trans growing up because they wanted to play football (which is a boys sport in the UK) and many American TIMs say they knew they were trans growing up because they wanted to play soccer (which is a girls sport in the US)?

The proof that gender is a cultural creation is the fact that gender performance varies from culture to culture.

There are some small difference in gender performance but, universally women do the childcare, cooking, cleaning etc. In cultures that have never interacted, women were still found to be doing all the shit work at first contact.

@Mrswoodster

Go ahead, no one is stopping you making a film but be aware, that when the media focus on how you look, you will be blamed for it and that some people will focus on single sentences in your interview. I hope no one will compare you to an American you've never met who has had radical surgery she later regretted, in an attempt to undermine who you say you are or believe yourself to be or make assumptions about your relationship based on nothing at all. I hope your film sucessful and you are treated with more respect than Jason has been.

Some people believe gender to be a social construct and, while it might be, there is no proof for this theory, that gender is a social construct is not a 'fact'.
The proof that gender is a cultural creation is the fact that gender performance varies from culture to culture.

mrswooster

I am fat, thin haired, and am obsessing over caravans online. I have had TWO babies. I claim my lucrative film and interview contract.

Gender as a sociocultural concept, the states and expectations of being man or woman.

For example, you need to be female to give birth, females have the appropriate anatomy but the expectation to be the primary carer for a child is gender based, you don't need to be a particular sex to care for a child.

Some people believe gender to be a social construct and, while it might be, there is no proof for this theory, that gender is a social construct is not a 'fact'.

Girls, in general tend to walk and say world earlier than boys. We don't know if this is sex based, due to gendered expectations or something else entirely.

Some people dismiss gender as a set of stereotypes, which might also be true but it should be remembered that behaviours become stereotypical because they are acted out so often. The real question is, are they acted out so often because they are expected or because of another factor?

I mentioned this but I wanted to scream - this transperson (female) has a baby and gets to make what seems to be a lucrative film.

Women who have babies are discriminated against, reduce their life time earnings significantly especially if they take more than six months off work, face being a target of discrimination and restructured it of their jobs, may have a hard time returning to work and getting flexibility and so on and so on.....

I'm okay with the biology stuff, I get that. I even believe that sex and gender match up in the overwhelming majority.

@Stillscreaming What definition of gender are you using? Genuine question, I'm not being facetious.