Pregnant trans men Guardian article

Can you really not think of a reason why hard physical labour or fighting on the front line might be a natural gender disposition across the globe, whether it needs mentioning or not?

Men are bigger and stronger than women and don’t become pregnant. Cultures divide labour differently, but physical reality influences the division of labour, not ‘gender’.

Now the nature of warfare and work has changed,women can control their fertility and women have more choices, but as I have already said, that is a very recent development.

The point is that women aren’t choosing to do ‘shit work’ (still not sure what means) any more than men.

I don’t think all work is ‘shit’, and am still not really sure what stillscresming defines as ‘shit work’.

Jason's experience of birth was a 'female biological experience'. Jason's psychological issues with their body needed to be managed sensitively but this is true for many women. Midwives are supposed to give woman centred care, which means responding to the individual so this shouldn't be a problem (except that obs and gynae services are seriously underfunded so it is the exception rather than the rule for any woman to get responsive care). Jason didn't seem to be up in arms about being referred to as 'mum' which is good, but there have been other articles where this type of thing was cited as the cause for a serious complaint.

*Yes. However, if we have to agree that transmen are men, we are actually being asked to recognise that 6 men gave birth last year.

That is where things start to become Orwellian.*

This is where I came in. Your truth isn't an absolute truth. By all means disbelieve what other people tell you about themselves but that doesn't give you a free pass on negating their experience or to be mean about it.

I can say that 'cis' is an acceptable Latin term or that TERF is an accurate acronym but I knew that many women don't want to be called those things. My objective truth doesn't outweigh their right to name themselves, that's not how respectful people behave.

I didn't say that Jason was male I said he was a bloke. That's what he calls himself and he uses male pronouns. Neither of those thing take anything away from you.

I think they got paid and then got their supper made for them and their clothes washed et cetera, et cetera, et cetera

The question was do you think they chose to go down the mines because they had a choice (People in the Welsh Valleys love darkness and being underground!) or do you think they were just human beings doing what was possible in their circumstances?

Do you think the women had a choice?

You seem to think innate gender qualities influence how people behave, but I think the vast majority of people throughout history have had very limited choices.

The question is why men aren’t being accused of having a natural gender predisposition towards dong ‘shit work’ when men without a choice often end up doing ‘shit work’?

I don't really understand what you're saying but that might be the wine, all work is shit! Can you really not think of a reason why hard physical labour or fighting on the front line might be a natural gender disposition across the globe, whether it needs mentioning or not? Sounds like WATM to me.

The question is why men aren’t being accused of having a natural gender predisposition towards dong ‘shit work’ when men without a choice often end up doing ‘shit work’?

It is an interesting example of how the patricharcy oppresses most people, that in it's not just all men opressing all women that it's often contracted to, by some.

it's possible to recognise that Jason and five other transmen gave birth, along with almost 700,000 women each year.

Yes. However, if we have to agree that transmen are men, we are actually being asked to recognise that 6 men gave birth last year.

That is where things start to become Orwellian.

Do you think men who spent hours down coal mines weren’t doing ‘shit work’? Do you think they had a choice?

I think they got paid and then got their supper made for them and their clothes washed et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

... trans demands to speak of 'pregnant people' rather than women, to not deny all the 'men' who've given birth.

I suppose that comes down to weather you believe that the female biological expereicne can be erased so easily. Personally, I don't think that the whole language has to be changed to 'pregnant people' but it's possible to recognise that Jason and five other transmen gave birth, along with almost 700,000 women each year.

While lots of women give birth, it's quite a personal thing, they want different expereinces. A friend has just had a home birth, which was exactly what she wanted but in no way negates a woman who elects to have a c-section. Most women don't want to be treated as an amorphous mass when they're birthing.,

No, not ‘what about the men’.

The question is why men aren’t being accused of having a natural gender predisposition towards dong ‘shit work’ when men without a choice often end up doing ‘shit work’?

Accusing a woman of being nasty and vile for reporting death threats against her and her children is more than enough for me.

If she got any death threats, she was absolutely right to report them. I'm accusing her of being nasty and vile for being nasty and vile.

The vileness doesn't make the death threats acceptable and the death threats don't make her vileness to others acceptable.

Do you think men who spent hours down coal mines weren’t doing ‘shit work’? Do you think they had a choice?

WATM??

I have a feeling my post might get buried in the wider discussion that's opened up in this thread, but focusing on the initial theme of the thread, I've just watched a fantastic video by Penny White on You Tube 'Why I Became An Evil TERF' (sorry, I have no idea how to upload).

This was over two years ago, which reminds me how long this discussion has been going on and I'm so pleased it's being blown up by Mumsnet right now.

I love the whole video, but in particular a couple of sentences struck home and encapsulated what's going on here: she's talking about trans demands to speak of 'pregnant people' rather than women, to not deny all the 'men' who've given birth.

And she describes it as being the #alllivesmatter for reproductive rights. And that to do so erases an axis of oppression.

This is such a succinct and important way of putting it. Many people are horrified when some try to appropriate #blacklivesmatter and do whataboutery for 'all lives'.

Female penises, pregnant 'men', transwomen rights - it's the same thing that's going on with biological sex matters.

Stillscreaming, I expected my post quoting your defamation to be removed also.

I choose to take the advice of Maya Angelou when people like you show me who they are. Accusing a woman of being nasty and vile for reporting death threats against her and her children is more than enough for me.

pissing around in an office.

So now I feel bad about all the time I spend pissing around in an office while my husband is at home. (I mean he pisses around in an office too, but apparently I’m particularly suited to ‘shit work’).

I really admire women who are able to put their egos in their pockets and do the shit work, just so it gets done and I'd much rather spend time with one, than with an alpha male type.

What is this ‘shit work’ you keep talking about? Do you think men who spent hours down coal mines weren’t doing ‘shit work’? Do you think they had a choice?

I can think of nothing that I can say is absolutely common to all women

I can. Female reproductive biology.

The offence is that ANYONE has sexist ideas,

Noticing difference isn't sexist, making value judgements about those differences is sexist. I really celebrate the things mark women out as different to men, I think that there're really positive improvements. I really admire women who are able to put their egos in their pockets and do the shit work, just so it gets done and I'd much rather spend time with one, than with an alpha male type.

I'd like to see the value of the shit work recognised. Rearing children, caring for the elderly and keeping a home safe is just as valuable as pissing around in an office. The 'shit' isn't in the work itself, it's in its lack of recognition.

Meta-examination of all studies done to discover difference in male and female brains have not detected ANY difference that would allow a researcher to definitely say one brain is male and the other is female.

That's true but it's not the whole story. The best comparison that I can come up with is hight, there are no male or female hights, although men tend to be taller than women but I can't shout out 6'1" and expect you to know, definitively, that I'm talking about a man. So while I can't claim that there are specific brain differences that are unique and ubiquitous to either sex or gender, I can say that male brains tend in one direction and women's brains tend in another.

The same is true of most gendered things, I can think of nothing that I can say is absolutely common to all women, we find outliers and exceptions everywhere.

Here's a report of a study that has a larger than normal sample size, showing physical brains differences. It also touches to how hormones might impact brains function, in relation to menopausal women:

www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/study-finds-some-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. All anyone making claims about innate gender has been able to offer up is either or sophistry. Women have every reason on earth to push back against this assertion of gendered brains, because we KNOW it will be used against us.

I keep not claiming that I have any proof that gender is innate. What I keep saying this that there is no proof that all gendered behaviour is a result of outside influence ie that gender is a social construct. Saying that something isn't black, doesn't means that I'm claiming it's white.

I can't see why gendered brains are more intrinsically oppress-able than sexed brains or brains that have adapted to cultural constraints.

This is a lie. It is defamation and I am going to report your post..

I'm sure that anyone who wants to can google Cathy Brennan's name for themselves. I'd link to some of her stuff but that would be taken down.

It's also a little disingenuous to claim to be so offended by my reference to Cathy Brennan, that's you report it but then reproduce it in full in your own post. I'm sure you have your own reasons.

Your own habit of name calling when someone doesn't agree with you, bewilderbeast, is quite telling and indicative of your awareness of what civilised conversation is.

As I said, there are sections of trans rights supporters on who behave appallingly. There are also women on Mumsnet who have called me a man, repeatedly used male pronouns for me and likened my behaviour to a sex offenders, just because I disagree with them. Rude and nasty behaviour isn't the soul preserve of one side. Consider being the change you want to see, stop the name calling.

Have you considered the possibility I thought you were a bloke.

No, I think that's a petty little put down to just to justify your misogynistic behaviour. Misogynists often do that too.

I do wonder about the place this behaviour comes from. I wonder why anyone would feel so offended that some women have different ideas to them. I wonder about the need to constantly hammer down a different view. If you're confident that you're correct in your reasoning, why behave like this when you're challenged.

you know, you can wee standing up, you just need to take your pyjama trousers off and be in a field at night.

come now, I can't be the only one.....