Why are TIMs colonising womanhood when they hate us?

Jaycee that's truly awful, I am so sorry you had to go through that. What a massive breach of trust to experience. I'm sorry but he was a bastard and a coward. How a person can do that to any other human being is beyond me.

Lostart - not entirely sure you include transsexual women in what you call TIMs, but I am assuming so from wider context of this thread.

In which case plenty of men do have relationships with us in a heterosexual sense and treat us much like they do other women.

I met my partner six months after I had GRS and he invited me out for a drink. We had a good night. Then he invited me for a meal. Nice too. Then he invited me to meet his parents (he lived some distance from me so it involved me staying). I agreed but decided now was the moment to tell him about myself.

He met me off the train and I asked if we could go for a walk first and it was a lovely Summers night and he wanted to kiss. I said that first I had something to tell him. The hardest thing I ever had to do.

We sat quietly for a while - then he kissed me - and said, come on and meet my family.

After that weekend and taking him to meet my family too I said that now we had to tell his family, and he said, not yet. I need time to explain. So I gave him time.

Trouble was he always wanted more. We became very close and the relationship developed. I explained we could not marry but he wanted to live together. So I moved to his area, we started saving for a house and lived for six months with his large family.

Over and over I asked to let me tell them and he said he was scared of them saying something to make him drop me. It got ever more awkward as his mum and sisters kept asking about wedding plans and if we wanted a baby as they could see how close we were. I just told them the truth - could not have kids - we were not considering marriage yet. But it started to be a problem for me not saying.

Even when we were out with friends my friends knew, his didn't as he would not even tell them.

We bought a house together, got a priest to do a blessing (telling the priest of course - but I found out years later he told the priest not to talk to his family).

Things went well and we were happy for quite a few years but I had been published by now and had a local radio show too. I kept telling him that this might lead to the press finding out as I had told everyone I worked with about being trans and his family were almost the only ones who did not know by now and we just had to talk to them before that happened.

But again it was a no. Then, I went away for a couple of days promoting a book and he could not come this time (he came with me to many events, including a Leicester Square premiere of a movie I was involved with). When I got back he had a strange girl upstairs in his bedroom - who ran out the front door as soon as I entered.

We had our first big row and I told him I was going home to stay with my parents for a few days whilst we both calmed down. He phoned up, came round, pleaded with me to return and I said only if we could talk to his family. He said no. I said well until you do then we can meet up but we cannot live together again. Just let us come clean before the press get wind.

Not long after a tabloid called me to say they were doing a story about me the next day and would I talk to them. I said only if they gave me a few days to resolve some private matters first, then yes I would. These were, of course, to go and make clear we now had to talk to his family. And I also had to with my brother tell his two children at primary school who had never known me as anything but their aunty as I transitioned years before they were born and we were going to tell them when old enough as back then this was not something kids at school knew anything about let alone acted on and we all felt that was the right approach.

Of course, the paper refused so published a half true tale with some photo they must have got by tailing me as I have no idea where it came from.

I bet you can guess the rest. My fiancé claimed it was the first he ever knew and that I had deceived him for years and he set his father and older brother round to threaten my family with violence unless I signed over the house.

Of course, I did. And it hurt for a long time and after that I stayed away from forming any relationships as a result - just had a few dalliances with guys who I told up front but could not ever trust to do the same.

So, yes, men can and do treat trans women pretty horribly. He was not a bad man. Just scared of public reaction and what his family might say, I think.

There was a nice sequel, but I will not share that here for now.

mean not been!

My guess, Sweary is that after the show he's thought a bit about what was said. People have got so used to chanting 'trans women are women' in the certainty that they're on the right side of history.

Now that the madness of the transcult ideologies (note, I do not been trans folk I mean the transcult TRA/MRA zealots) is being exposed people are beginning to question their certainty about 'the right side of history'. But people have been so indoctrinated into transcult ideology that their default position is to defend it. He's reiterated the old 'poor trans people/nasty rad fems' but I suspect he's having second thoughts.

And no-one wants to be on the wrong side of history do they? I suspect we'll see quite a few people do U-turns on this.

Because we're not the porny sexualised version of womanhood they want us to be and we keep offensively reminding them of that fact.

I joined twitter a year or 2 ago when starting to question the trans narrative and wanted a different voice from just mumsnet’s mostly gender critical tone. Tbh, i was shocked with what i found. The narcissistic delusion of so many transwomen, the attention serking, the constant selfies, the porn, the über sexualised clothes and poses, their BDSM, their dominatrixes - I honestly didn’t expect it to the extent that i found as I often check out folk who comment on threads as i try to avoid discussion with vulnerable confused kids and folk with serious depression/obvious mh issues.

Yesterday a TW boasted to Shon Faye how they’ve been using femsle loos and only had a few dirty looks. This is a 7ft male who wears a bright red wig and highly attention seeking sexualised clothing. Absolutely no concern or it seems idea how intimidating they might seem to females in a closed space like a loo.

They think that "sexy submissive fucktoy" is what a woman is, or at least what it should be. That's why they hate women who have no interest at all in fulfilling that stereotype most of all.

(And then they hate the ones who do too, for being better at it than they are.)

The person who said that they see us as the gatekeepers of sex was right on. That type of man barely notices woman who aren't fuckable, so to him woman - fuckable young woman = you have so many sexual options and I have none and that's not fair! There's a blogger on Tumblr who calls them trancels (trans + incel) and that's pretty much it for the rainbow stockings/anime icon/"lesbian"/bash a TERF variety of TIM. They think they can identify into being sexually appealing to a large number of people. And when that inevitably doesn't work they throw tantrums and try to manipulate and bully people into pretending that it did.

Honestly sweary - if he wants to chat more tell him you'll set up a thread just for him where he can do a Q&A. Tell him we'd love to talk more and explore the issue but you personally have done loads and you mustn't get ground down by doing solo on this all the time.

That depends on what you are disagreeing about, dunnit? Cuz there are a few things I can think of where disagreeing is calling to police because of disliking.

Well he feels it would be nice to talk more so why doesn't he pop on here for a chat?

Sweary, I salute you.

These are the great grandsons of the men who burned the first women's public toilet in London to the ground.

Wich - yes and I just knew (and I was working in a capacity where it wasn't my place - whether male or female - to step in) that if I had said, well hang on, you are outraged that you are not allowed to say something you THINK is fact (i.e. x type of people are thick and the men running the show know that but are happy to use that as a weapon to close you down) but what do you think think about us saying what we KNOW for a fact, that is sex - apart from a tiny number of people who are born with mixed biology and are generally and involuntarily sterile so this is not something that is passed on - is binary.

And you know that transwomen are not women and transmen are not men, so why on earth are we all being expected to say otherwise for fear of being "transphobic".

TRA current tactic is "this is a fake news argument, women support us apart from a lunatic fringe of rad fems and Tory homophobes"... just, no.

Honestly, do any of us really mind if a transexual who has been through years of hormones/surgery wants to use a private cubicle (if they still have a penis) in the female facilities? Not so much I don't think (though some on here feel differently). But don't alter the law to the extent that ANYONE can say "I feel like I need to use these facilities" and also to the extent that we are wrong for thinking that these are males that we can accept on the basis that they have undergone a serious and committed process to alter their biology.

For the He-Man Woman Haters Club it is a perfect opportunity to drive women out of the public sphere in the name of equality for all.

Men know totally well that TIM aren't women. I've yet to see any man treat MIT like they do women.

Men just can't cope with the idea of women having opinions, or power or the ability to say no.

Mirialis, what I said upthread, if all men admitted and accepted that male violence and sexual assault was a male problem things might change. But so many won't. It's not that they don't see and smell the bullshit, they do, but they're not prepared to do anything to bring about change. Too much effort required and too much scary personal responsibility. Easy to rant about politicians as a group, but not so their own sex.

Kneedeep - I think fortunately the message has got across and I suspect we will find the self ID changes have been quietly shelved for now as the government have enough problems and misjudged the reaction from women.

It will no doubt not go away for good but if more and more transsexuals speak out against going too far then that might help get across that the people they wrote the GRA for are fine with it as it stands.

And if the ones who are not are serious then the have a simple way to go forward. Follow the rules that exist to get a GRC. Nothing stopping them. If they believe they are who they say they are it shiuld not even be an issue.

The fact that it is for so many unless all the barriers are removed suggests they are not sure they could pass through.

The Equality also needs looking at as the subtle switch away from the original qualification for access via the GRA - Gender Reassignment (medical and surgical transition) has morphed into the far more loose Gender Identity. Which can mean anything between full transition and none.

That needs more focus than the GRA is getting because that is what controls the most sensitive spaces such as refuges and those have to be protected still as now.

It's interesting as I have had a conversantion with a group of modern lefty blokes tonight at work. They were all bar one "Remainers". They were utterly outraged at the idea of the Daniel Hannans/Michael Goves etc lying and manipulating people and then going absolutely crazy if anyone says some of those people who bought into it are thick. They were so angry that they weren't allowed to say that these people were [in their opinion] thick when they KNEW that DH and MG and BJ and co privately call them thick.

It wasn't my place or time to say anything - and this isn't about whether you are pro-Brexit or not - but it really jarred with me because these were exactly the kind of unthinking woke lefty men who will tell us "Transwomen are women" and see us being transphobic (aka a version of homophobic) because we are not allowed to say "FFS they are MEN and we will accept ones who've been through full hormone treatment for a couple of years at the least into our vulnerable and exposed spaces but please don't berate us for saying they are men because on the sly YOU also believe they are men."

Well done Sweary. You have done and are doing an amazing thing- the classic "someone should do something...and that someone is me"! I bet most of us on here wish we had your courage and resolve.

Mirialis, of course I understand and agree. The delays were built in on purpose not to annoy. They are necessary to successful transition. It is wrong all round - for women - society - the transitioner - to tick a box one line and think that is enough.

It very much is not.

Cross post with Jaycee who put it much better.

The thing is too that while under the current legal situation transwomen having reached that full stage of transition have been able to use women's facilities - they're a very small group, it hasn't been an issue.

Under self ID that group stretches massively to include Uncle Tom Cobley and all. Joanne and others like her get lost in that crowd. And unless there is a very clear way to gatekeep and draw the line between the serious, committed, significantly physically transitioned and Jim who just felt a bit gender fluid this morning/is stalking the woman who just went into the changing room/gets off on sitting naked in a room full of little girls stripping off for swimming with their mums and seeing everyone get really uncomfortable - it can't work.

There has to be a line. And that means rejecting some of the massive group under the current 'umbrella' and having the guts to say these people can with this specific criteria, but these people can't, and a third space will be provided. And weathering the massive tantrums that will ensue from the TRA lobby. Otherwise my worry is, if no lines can be drawn, that women (and men once the reality of this starts to become apparent) will be forced to shift to a position of no one male born in women's spaces at all, full stop, and the transwomen who for decades have had no problem will end up losing their access.

This however would take a government with actual integrity and courage.

Witchbitch I totally understand that and have posted a lot on threads in here over the past 2 weeks agreeing with it.

I am against self ID and removing medical assessment and the other checks and balances (as are quite a few transsexuals for whom the law was created and who see all these transgender self identifiers wanting in but refusing to follow the required guidelines as too onerous).

If that happens it suddenly turns the 5000 properly medically transitioned holders of a Gender Recognition Certificate into 600,000 with all sorts of concepts of who they are and uncertainty over what kind of male parts they have.

That creates a totally different reality that the law was never created to deal with but that women will have to accommodate. It is why I signed the petition to give women a say in this. It is undeniable.

busyboys - on another thread somewhere I suggested something very similar. A provisional GRC with more restrictions as to spaces but helpful for day to day.

Two problems - it will always be about passing - and if a trans woman does not they can cause concern - and if a non trans very much a man successfully disguises he might be. That can happen with or without any act to stop them but the concept of self ID would give an air of legitimacy to that. So I think we have to draw a line and not go that far - medical transition only for access has to be a part of this for fairness all round.

Men just won't accept (be they gay/straight/trans) that the level of risk they pose to others is huge and that they, as a group, need to sort this shit out. They will argue anything rather than just say, "Well yes, you have a fair point".

DARVO

Deny
Accuse
Reverse
Victim
Offender

So the interviewer revels in his figures about women committing violence - yawn.

"Male violence. And bastard men refusing to accept that it's a problem."

It beneficial for men to deny male violence. All men.

Sweary, you did great.