Why are TIMs colonising womanhood when they hate us?

@Ereshkigal The thread I linked was removed (presumably to the members only area) earlier this afternoon.

Thanks pickle.

It's particularly nice when they fantasise about killing women they don't like.

Click on board index, then trans chat, t lounge, then the thread about confronting cis women and terfs.

Thanks pickle but I just get a "does not exist" message every time I click link to that site . What's the thread title where the posts referencing MN are, or a clue to it?

I'm reading a long one about how awful TERFs are at the moment. Starting at time of Speakers Corner.

More than anything it is the blatant dishonest that gets up my nose.
I have been 15 years on Feminist blogs and forums, and this is the blueprint for what men do.
They say they come to a room full of women to learn and then they try to teach us instead through some of the same transparent manipulative tactics men have used on us all our lives. When they are through using us for their narcissistic feed, or in this case more nefarious purposes, they thank us for our service.

As so often happens when interacting with men, women are being pushed from tolerance to submission. As so often happens when interacting with men, women are called intolerant for refusing to submit.

This was one.

www.angelsforum.co.uk/phpforum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34797

The linked thread doesn't exist, I just randomly browsed. I'll see what I can find.

Which thread is it on the Angels site? My phone doesn't like links to that site, it always says they don't exist when other people tell me they are still there.

Sorry I had to come back briefly as someone asked for my thoughts.

All I want to say is, picklemepopcorn, I do agree with your post entirely.

That is the issue and nothing in there is at all arguable by me.

Glad I was asked to look at your post because it has given me more hope for the future. Thank you.

I found some posts on angels really interesting. It was interesting to see measured (mainly) critical conversation among trans people who are not needing to assert themselves over people who strongly disagree. We on MN can be pretty strident in our language, when we are riled up. Bonkers is the least of it.

However, there is still a fundamental misunderstanding- or difference of perspective. Women have by and large been happy to accept transsexuals as 'honorary women'. Share space with them etc. It was a privilege extended to people who behaved appropriately.

We are now being asked to believe something we do not think is true. - that someone who is not a woman can decide that they are a woman, and access all the supports put in place to compensate for a male dominated world. That someone born male can think they know more about being a woman than women do clearly doesn't make sense. In addition, the overwhelming majority of violence and abuse is carried out by men. We can relax in a female environment because violence is statistically less likely to happen. If men don't want violent people in their space, then they need to address that. They don't get to come into women's spaces to escape it because guess what- it follows them in!

transwomen need to accept that women should control women's spaces and that transwomen are honorary women.

OvaHere, I am not planning on posting again after this mesage, so the rest of you can relax.

I just wanted to say thank you for reporting your read through and making some balanced comments that reflect very favourably on your fair mindedness.

This is exactly what I would hope more of us can try to do.

I suspect there is an element of truth in some of the things you say.

I also apologise for calling some of the theories discussed on here 'bonkers' over on Angels.

Whilst I do think that it was probably unfair of me not to say that on here if I was saying it at all. And would have been better not to have made any reaction and just kept the thought to myself.

But there you go I do just call these things like I see them. I am not consciously trying to put on an act or I would have acted that way.

Though I guess we all do play to our perception of ourselves to some extent in life.

Regardless that was my mistake and sorry to anyone it offended.

You will have noticed that I have been consistently opposed to self ID and removal of medical assessment everywhere that I have posted. And not in a million years am I faking anything or playing one off against the other. What I say is what I believe, no more, no less.

Yes, my views are evolving but they have always been in that direction. I am learning by talking to others and making my mind up on things I have never really thought about before. As this has not been the great burning issue of my life for many years until very recently when it has just taken off around me and I wondered why.

I was genuinely looking for some kind of common ground because I regard the actions of the extremists and activists creating fights everywhere as counterproductive. Violence is wrong - no exceptions. Sadly, that will not stop it happening, of course.

Do I get what you are saying?

Well I came on here to try and find out why you felt so strongly, so, hopefully yes I do now a little better.

It was my only motive so and achieved that goal and despite your response I am okay with that.

Do I have a vested interest in creating a separation between myself and all the others who are doing and saying stupid things that are clearly self centred - well, then - yes - I think that is probably true.

Because I certainly do not endorse that approach either as you have discovered. So I would distance myself apart from anything wrong.

I think that inventing names, calling them out and screaming bigotry or believing that only anger will solve problems is simply not what we should be doing to find a way through.

I wished to try to understand what was going on and why you feel as you do and now accept that some of them are valid and will keep on saying so.

So believe it or not I am grateful for your responses. It was what I was looking for and has taught me a lot.

Things are deeply divided right now but I hope for some sense to prevail.

What happens when they get into prominent positions that decide on matters such as abortion? So worrying on many levels.

What is it with anime? Seems both trends have come together. People see Trans as being a minority but it seems to be more of a trend now.

*In the case of TIM's, just replace "manly" with "alpha"- Because the ones that hate us are thinking they're going to walk into "womanhood" & get to be Boss.

Men hate us because they exploit us. It's lIke other types of class oppression, where the oppressors evolve a particular type of hatred, anger and resentment toward those they oppress.

It helps them to think we're inferior because that proves we "need" them to rule over us, it justifies their poor treatment of us, it tells them we enjoy it or deserve it, and it protects their egos from realising were probably fine without them a lot of the time, whereas they're actually incredibly dependent on us.

They're needy people. They need our domestic, carer, reproductive, and especially emotional labour, and they need to compare/contrast themselves to us to feel all manly about themselves.

Hate us but couldn't possibly just leave us in peace.

That's why we like them. They're not faking it and they're not trying to manipulate us.

They're also funny, which, I dunno about anyone else but I'll take succinct and hilarious over wordy and so tedious that their writing might work well as a sleep aid any day.

I've read some of your Digital Spy posts Jaycee before you started posting on Mumsnet and I do think there is an element of changing the tone or playing to a specific audience going on. Which is understandable to a degree because all three sites you post on have a very different demographic.

Compared to the rabid transactivists you do seem pretty reasonable but I also do wonder whether your vested interest lies more in creating a separation between yourself and the newer trans crowd like Riley Dennis and Lily Madigan than standing with women due to our concerns about self ID.

This I would also understand but it's not quite the same thing as the shared perspective between the feminist women here so it's not surprising that we are suspicious when you post negatively about this board elsewhere. It leaves us with a lingering gut feeling that you don't really, truly 'get it' despite saying a lot of the right words.

Ultimately it's a circle that can't be squared and I think you probably know that.

You know the other thread where several of us instantly clocked Jayceedove as not as nice as they were trying to pretend to be?

The next time Jaycee appeared, the arguments had all been carefully rearranged to "gender critical transsexual" so I stopped engaging at that point. That clearly didn't get enough attention or wasn't as well received as expected, so I see now several thousand word manipulative anecdotes is the new tactic.

Sorry, Jaycee, but you'll find consistency is a good plan if you want to go fifth column. There are some decent trans people on this forum and we like them. It's hard to fake genuine, I'm afraid. That's why we like them. They're not faking it and they're not trying to manipulate us.

Manipulation is a very unappealing personality trait.

I’m not bothered what your opinions are flower, but when you wrote ‘bonkers’ and mentioned psychiatrists, well, it’s the oldest trick in the book. It’s what men used to say to get us committed, take our kids away, have us drugged, burnt as witches, discredited in court, lobotomised, divorced etc.

You should also realise that much as you are having fun by railing on me for some perception or other the same works both ways.

I really did come in peace and looking for harmony. And have often said on Angels that the battles they claim are necessary to fight should be stopped and replaced by talking to one another sensibly.

You will see they tell me on there that is not possible.

I have disagreed. Kay, who someone mentioned earlier, and I largely agree and say much the same on Angels. Both of us have taken times out off there because we are not always popular.

I genuinely hope that you do not prove me wrong and them right.

It won't actually matter what you say to me or about me because it will not cause offence. I expected that and always will but hoped we could get past that.

Either way I am not joining in any public fights against you so it will not matter.

Indeed, I hope you're all suitably chastened by the knowledge that Jaycee will be disappointed in you if you continue not agreeing with Jaycee. .

Sometimes I think it would be great if there was a word limit on comments to help out those people who have no internal editor.

(But then we'd miss out on the excellent long comments from Datun etc, so maybe best not.)

Yeah carry on minimising.

I am sure you will all have fun over this now and run away thinking I have been 'found out'.

But if you read all my posts on here I made no effort to stop you finding anything I have posted anywhere else because I have in all three places been totally consistent about what I believe. So have no hidden views to keep from you.

If you really read things fully and without prejudice you will see that.

If you don't then fair enough. You will think what you will think. It is your choice.

Quite a few nasty things were said about me on here two weeks ago by some of you. You know that. You also know I have never shouted back or once objected to words you have used.

I could have posted in here that I found some of the ideas about why men want to colonise womanhood as rather bonkers.

Because I simply do.

However, I accept that you don't. So chose not to raise that here as opinions and theories are not really important as none of us actually know what causes someone to be transsexual or want to self ID. And it is quite clear what most of you think of the view that I hold that I suspect but do not know for sure there will be some medical cause possibly involving a genetic anomaly within the brain behind transsexual cases.

I am sure many of you would call that bonkers too and if you did I would not be demanding an explanation because theories are theories and many of them on all sides are rather odd.

You can view that as disingenuous if you like. I will just argue it was me trying not to cause offence by highlighting those areas we disagree when we actually agreed on other things and that was more positive to focus on.

You will find if you really do bother to read even a fraction of the stuff I have written on Digital Spy that I have not been an activist or a fanatic, ever, as I have said. Never once been to any trans rallies ir meetings or events and have no interest in doing so.

That I joined Angels for the same reason as I joined here - to see what both sides believed and why of this war going on all around me that I never saw coming.

On Digital Spy you will see lots of things - that I staunchly defended Jenni Murray against attacks from trans activists on there as long ago as whenever that Woman's Hour story broke.

And last year defended that teacher over the misgendering row with a pupil saying I was concerned he was being used to fight a fight he did not experience.

I made no effort to stop you finding my other posts because I only ever post what I believe. And I have done that here - on Angels - and on Digital Spy.

Totally your choice how you see it. I will be disappointed if you do not at least judge me on more than one comment about 'bonkers' ideas and read more widely what I have said.

But in the long run that's up to you. It will not stop me saying what I believe on these matters when the subject comes up wherever it does. And that will be exactly what I have said in this thread because it is only what I believe.