Debunking some myths

And what is your view on Pip Bunce, who is sometimes 'a man' and sometimes 'a woman'. Do you think that Pip should just be allowed to use which ever sex segregated space they feel like that day? What is your justification for this?

You still haven't answered what you mean by gender? Do you believe in self id? So a man who looks like a man can just declare he is actually a woman and be allowed into a female changing room or wherever else?

Do you understand that some women might not want to share their spaces with a male bodied person, whether that person looks straight up like a man, or whether they are a man who has made some modifications to look more stereotypically like a woman? Are the feelings of those women valid?

Can you explain the basis on which you believe that transwomen are women? You are giving very short answers which are not really explaining your position.

Which expression of gender is the 'right' one to enable a man to transgress sex-based boundaries? Would a man who performs female gender expectations in the UK be allowed to go into women's spaces in China? After all, the performance is very different there and he would not match it.

I believe they can change gender.

Gender is a social construct. It’s the set of expectations society hangs on each sex, so while it’s related to sex, it isn’t sex. But that’s not what I was asking. I was asking if a human can change sex

A woman is a biologically female adult human. So if transwomen are women, it means that a biological human Male has changed sex to become a biological female. They would have changed sex.

Can humans change sex?

I ask because nobody ever gives me a straight ‘yes’ to this question. They twist themselves in know linguistically when it’s tally a straight yes or no. If you literally believe that trans women are women, you believe humans can change sex.

Do you believe humans can change sex?

Yes.

I believe they can change gender.

What do you mean by 'gender'? To me, gender just means the stereotypes places on men and women by society, there is nothing objective or universally truthful about it, like there is about sex.

And how far do you take gender? For example, if you believe that someone can change 'gender' , do you believe that that means they can use the changing rooms of the opposite sex? Because sex and gender are different things? So should we be changing sex based things to apply instead on the basis of 'gender'?

I believe they can change gender.

My understanding is, that in most prisoners, sex offenders are kept in different parts of the prison to the general population because of a risk to others and themselves.

Incorrect. Male bodied prisoners are already being housed in female estate - with female prisoners. There are insufficient places for separate housing. So bunking, showering with them for example. Why should a vulnerable female population have to shower in a communal shower with a male bodied person just because they self ID? It leaves incarcerated women who are extremely vulnerable open to abuse. I know prisoners are pretty far down the ‘trendy victim ladder’ but they have a right to safety and dignity. Sex offender male prisoners are not held in isolation away from other inmates and prisoners have already been assaulted.

If you’d be kind enough to answer my other question bibijayne - do you believe humans can actually change sex?

I ask because nobody seems to actually believe this. And it’s the core of many arguments.

Bibijayne - what is gender? What is the universal indicator of gender in, say, London that remains constant in Liverpool, Glasgow, Swansea, Nimes, Cairo, Calcutta, Ulaangom, Funafuti or Rosario? Or how gender was expressed 10 years ago, or how it will be in another 10 years? How does the gender expression of this little girl playing with Lego fit your model?

Gender is imposed, not innate.

And speaking of not conforming to stereotypes, I think India Willoughby's recent shock at finding out that Mumsnetters didn't just talk about prams and makeup remover might make a pretty good case for most of the women on this forum meeting the Stonewall definition of trans.

As a percentage of the population transmen and transwomen are actually very small - and already incredibly marginalised.

So you're not using the Stonewall definition of trans which boils down to anyone who doesn't conform with stereotypical gender expectations, then? If you're not prepared to define women, can you give us your definition of transwomen?

You need to get some sort of grasp of class analysis. What was actually said was "of the sex capable of bearing offspring", not that all individual members of that sex are capable of bearing offspring. One thing we do know is that no male mammal, ever, in the whole history of mammals, has ever given birth to live young. The fact that there are some women who through some biological quirk can't have children does not make a man a woman.

"Cis" is a scientific descriptor in the context of stereochemistry. It has been hijacked by the transactivist movement to mean "someone whose gender identity lines up with their biological sex." This is not a neutral description because it suggests that (a) the existence of some sort of nebulous gender identity (akin to a soul, or ladybrain) has been established, when in fact it has not and that (b) gender as a system of social stereotypes imposing socially approved behaviour patterns on individuals because of their sex is somehow secondary to this sort of nebulous gender identity, when in fact most women experience gender as something that is done to them, not inside them.

So you're in effect saying to a bunch of women with a keen awareness of the history of feminism (women barred from universities and medical schools on account of having "lady-brains" - the concept of lady brains does not have happy implications for women), women who've suffered from sex based oppression all their lives (I had to take a former employer to court to get equal pay), you're saying to them "cis women, get back to your kitchen sink and be happy about it because you're cis." Then disingenuously wondering why we all get so pissed off about it.

The proportion of people with genuine dysphoria is indeed very very small - and they do indeed need more support, and they are marginalised. However, self ID legislation and the idea that any Tom, Dick or Harriet who feels like playing around with declaring themselves gender fluid (which is what is going on now) is actually likely to make their lives a lot harder. Because if the law can't distinguish in future between a person with genuine gender dysphoria and a fetishistic cross-dresser (of which there seem to be rather more) then women are going to worry about anyone who calls themselves trans, since the ability to distinguish legally between the genuinely dysphoric (who I have no problem having in most, but not all shared spaces) and the piss-takers is removed.

@picklemepopcorn This policy exists in some businesses. Stonewall certified companies offer guaranteed interviews to LGBTQ applicants who meet the minimum requirements of the job role.

@Bowlofbabelfish How about not being in a cell - by not committing a crime? And oddly enough, not being in a cell with a sex offender regardless of sex or gender. My understanding is, that in most prisoners, sex offenders are kept in different parts of the prison to the general population because of a risk to others and themselves.

How is cis grossly offensive? It's an academic and scientific descriptor which is relevant to this debate? Also gender is not a 'fashion' - there are numerous studies which highlight that @Alltheprettyseahorses

I'm not comparing infertile women to trans-women. You did that by asserting that a woman is defined by her ability to have babies.

As a percentage of the population transmen and transwomen are actually very small - and already incredibly marginalised. They're also more likely to be victims of crime that perpetrators.

Leaving toilets and assault aside for a moment....

Think about AWS. If transwomen are so marginalised that they need special treatment, then surely a policy like 'guaranteeing to interview all transwomen who apply' would be appropriate. That is a policy used to ensure people with disabilities are fully considered, and surely a more appropriate strategy than taking the space of another under represented group.

What would happen to interview processes, if trans applicants were guaranteed an interview I wonder?

Link to the study done by Dr Nicola Williams of Fair Play for Women on the number of trans sex offenders currently in UK prisons. Incidentally, it turned out that Nic had slightly underestimated the figures.

How do you stoo cis-women sex offenders entering women's only spaces?

Firstly cis is grossly offensive. Secondly someone born a woman who is a sex offender (and they are a tiny minority) doesn’t possess a penis. So they can’t rape female prisoners for example.

Would you prefer to be in a cell with a male bodied transwoman rapist, or a born female sex offender? Be honest. It’s like saying all dogs are capable of damage - yeah they are but you’d probably prefer to be locked in a lift with an aggressive pug than an aggressive Doberman, no?

Most women I know have no problem with transwomen in women's space... Because they're women.

bibijayne do you believe that humans can change sex?

I think it would be worth trying on this thread not to go into the whole debate about are trans women women, but instead to focus on those ‘myths’ the OP is trying to debunk. I frequently see these assertions being made regarding the law in this area, and believe them to be wrong. So does the OP know they are wrong? Are they trying to create a new reality by spreading these fake ‘truths’? How do we countermand these and show the real truth?

Because I see organisations and people believing these lies, and that’s dangerous.

What's hyperbolic about my questions? We have male-bodied sex offenders already being transferred to the female estate, so that one's not hyperbolic, it's happening. There are well documented cases of transwomen wanting to play contact sports (rugby, Aussie rules football, MMA fighting). So again, not hyperbolic - already happening.

And in any case, 98% of sex offenders in prison are male. Female sex offenders are very rare indeed, and because of the similarities in our physiques, I'd stand a chance of fighting off a female sex offender. I wouldn't stand a chance against a determined man.

Who's said infertile women aren't women? That's the sort of fatuous and entirely spurious comparison I've only ever seen transactivists make. Just because my reproductive system doesn't work doesn't stop me being female. Having a male reproductive system on the other hand, does rather clearly make you male.

Oh, and for the record, I consider myself misgendered by being described as a "cis" woman, because it implies that I identify with and am happy about my oppression, which I can assure you I bloody well am not. So don't use it.

Personally think the questions are ludicrous and hyperbolic.

How do you stoo cis-women sex offenders entering women's only spaces?

And are infertile women not women? What a silly argument.

I think many, many people seem to fail to understand the difference between gender and sex. And then get hysterical about very unlikely circumstances.

Well leaving aside what I think of as a quasi-religious issue (you believe transwomen are wonen, I do not), let's focus on entirely practical issues.

How do we ensure that male bodied sex offenders, regardless of how they "identity", are kept out of women's prisons? How do we word legislation?

How do we ensure that a group of like-minded women can get together to set up a rape crisis centre free from male-bodied individuals (both as service users and service providers) free from the threat of being sued into bankruptcy (as has happened in Canada)?

How do we ensure a women's rugby league can be formed without women having to be tackled/scrum down against male-bodied individuals (thread recently in AIBU where several women players talked with first hand experience of how much higher the risk of injury was playing against male-bodied individuals)?

How do we ensure women can ask for a female-bodied HCP to carry out intimate exams without the risk of being struck off her GP's list for showing "prejudice" towards trans HCPs' protected characteristics?

How do we make provision in old fashioned swimming pools with communal, open plan, single sex changing rooms (there are at least three of these near where I live) for women who don't want to get naked in front of male bodied individuals?

It is quite clear to anyone following these debates that there's a core of transactivists for whom the answer to all these questions appears to be "you shouldn't be able to request these things". And these high-profile transactivists seem to have the ear of people in power.

You can't prevent these questions being asked by simply trying to shout #nodebate.

Girls attending university may request a female to share with, and end up sharing with a male. females matter, their sports, their safe spaces, their right to awards, their voices, their right to access accurate stats, their right to have safe medical trials aimed at and tested on female bodies, their right to use their language to describe their experience.

Please spare a thought for women and girls when you are handing over their sex based rights and protections.

Please explain how transwomen are adult human females of the sex that bears young and produces eggs?

The law can make exceptions, but it doesn't make exceptions, and we are increasingly seeing female facilities being lost. Abuse against girls in schools is on the rise but their safe spaces are being made gender neutral, how do we measure their unease and discomfort, the effect on their mental health.

Disphoria is being uncoupled from trans and being a woman is being reduced to a sexist trope, this is deeply misogynistic and harmful.

In countries where they have adopted these policies we are seeing prisoners forced to shower with males, Muslim women harassed when they refuse to wax someones male genitals.

There is no room for gender conforming youth, none whatsoever, girls either girl properly or are assumed to be boys, the same goes for feminine boys. This is deeply sexist and can only be excused if you are sexist.