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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Debunking some myths

162 replies

pallas81 · 21/03/2018 12:18

I know I will be crucified for this but I aim to reach out to those who consider themselves open minded on the issue of reform to the Gender Recognition Act.
There is a great deal of talk about the dangers of male predators in female only spaces. It needs to be pointed out that this has nothing to do with the 2004 Gender Recognition Act or its possible reform. As the law currently stands, transgender women are perfectly entitled to use female toilets, changing rooms and facilities such as shelters and rape crisis centres. A Gender Recognition Certificate is NOT required. In fact, in law, it is illegal to demand such a certificate.
Transgender people are protected under the 2010 Equality Act. For those who are vehemently opposed to trans people having certain rights, you should be campaigning against the Equality Act instead of occupying yourselves with self identification.
However, I should point out that in the countries that have already adopted self identification as law there is no evidence that male predators have used it to prey on vulnerable women.
I'm afraid that much of the anger around this issue looks like paranoid fantasy when one knows the facts. Despite the best efforts of squalid sites like Transcrime, the rates of criminal behaviour among self-identified trans people is much much lower than the societal average and there is ZERO respectable evidence that self identified transgender females represent any threat to non-transgender females of any age.
If you wish to comment, please try to be courteous. Thank you.

OP posts:
DodoPatrol · 15/05/2018 19:47

No, I didn't ask for sources explaining the difference between gender and sex. I seem to spend half my days asking rambly medical authors to clarify whether their studies are, in fact, divided by sex or by gender.

(They often say gender, they almost invariably change it to sex when asked, occasionally they shuffle their feet and admit they aren't sure, which is going to be bugger-all help to the next person trying to replicate the results.)

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/05/2018 19:46

You asked for sources about the difference between gender and sex. And how people can change gender.

No I didn’t. I’m well aware of the difference between gender and sex. Sex is an immutable biological fact. Gender is the societal ‘stuff’ that is hung on each sex - what they are expected to dress like, look like, act like.

I asked you if you think humans can change sex. Not gender. Sex.

Do you think humans can change sex?

DodoPatrol · 15/05/2018 19:44

But a study that says it aims
'to assist transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming people with safe and effective pathways to achieving lasting personal comfort with their gendered selves, in order to maximize their overall health, psychological well-being, and self-fulfillment'
doesn't go any way at all to suggest how this can be done while achieving health, wellbeing and safety for those pesky other people.

The twin study shows that identical twins are more similar than non-identical.

I can't access the palliative social work book.

The NHS study is not a primary source, but it's looking at the needs of the individual and not, again, how that should be balanced against the needs of others.

I'm aware of the origins of the concept of GID, and of the use of the term gender to mean both inner identity and social stereotype.

I realise I wasn't clear before: I know that gender identity disorders exist, but I disagree that gender should trump biological sex where that matters in the first place.

AssassinatedBeauty · 15/05/2018 19:41

Not really. Usually when people provide studies/links they explain why they're relevant and what they're supporting. You have just put a list of things with no explanation at all. You're expecting anyone interested to find and read all of those in their entirety whilst guessing which bits you feel are relevant.

Bibijayne · 15/05/2018 19:38

You asked for sources about the difference between gender and sex. And how people can change gender. I provided sources. If you don't want to read them...

Well it does rather prove the point I've been making doesn't it :) quelle surprise!

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/05/2018 19:13

I’m aware gender dysphoria exists. Can you elaborate on what point your linked articles are trying to make?

None of them show or even attempt to say that humans can change sex (some of these have been posted here before.)

Here’s how it works: you make an argument and set out your stall with the points you wish to make. You can back up that argument with peer reviewed data (it’s bad form to link to paywalled stuff by the way because if people can’t read it then your evidence isn’t accessible to them.)

Plopping down a loada linkies isn’t arguing. It’s a combo of gish galloping and sea lioning.

Try harder. The standard of debate here is higher than twitter

AssassinatedBeauty · 15/05/2018 19:09

Can i ask what it is that these studies support?

PencilsInSpace · 15/05/2018 19:08

They look random. What do you think they prove? What argument(s) specifically are you backing up with these references?

Bibijayne · 15/05/2018 18:54

Cool, If you really are open minded - here's some references for you. They're mostly offline, so you'll need to source them from a library :) - there's a great deal more out there but I've been stuck in traffic for the last hour and only just sat down. And quite frankly I ache all over and need to eat something.

Heylens, G; De Cuypere, G; Zucker, K; Schelfaut, C; Elaut, E; Vanden Bossche, H; De Baere, E; T'Sjoen, G (2012). "Gender Identity Disorder in Twins: A Review of the Case Report Literature". The Journal of Sexual Medicine. 8 (3): 751–757. doi:10.1111/j.1743-6109.2011.02567.x.

Coleman E (2011). "Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender-Nonconforming People, Version 7" . International Journal of Transgenderism. Routledge Taylor & Francis Group. 13: 165–232.

Terry Altilio, Shirley Otis-Green (2011). Oxford Textbook of Palliative Social Work. Oxford University Press.

NHS - www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Pyschology Today -
www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/transgender

[The history of the concept of gender identity disorder].
Koh J. Seishin Shinkeigaku Zasshi. 2012 - you can read the abstract, but not the full thesis online here: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22844818/

GardenGeek · 15/05/2018 17:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PurpleCrowbar · 15/05/2018 17:44

Must be a cake in need of icing...

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 17:36

What's happened to @pallas81 anyway? Another plopper?

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 17:35

Phew! :)

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/05/2018 17:34

Oh i know! My reply was to Bibi too :) I didn’t think you’d said that

No worries ;)

DodoPatrol · 15/05/2018 17:33

I'm not here to try to persuade you that your deeply entrenched views are wrong
If I had any hope that you were open to debate and listening to other views...

But I am open to debate. I have changed my views, after hearing more of what transactivists are aiming for, because the logic of their position utterly escapes me.

Meanwhile, the argument that there are two sexes, and that sometimes we segregate for good reasons, seems quite a strong one.

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 17:27

Bowlofbabelfish I was replying to Bibijayne not you!

Sorry if that wasn't clear!

I certainly don't think you're ill-educated.

I'm keen to know what @Bibijayne thinks all the evidence proves. They doesn't need to look it up even - I'm asking for an opinion!

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 17:19

I accuse you of sealioning and you counter with "It's a classic derailing technique"

Funny that. Hmm

I don't think asking for evidence, or providing it, has ever been recognised as a derailing tactic. It's a fundamental part of debate.

But you've said you don't want to provide it - so it's the same old tosh again, isn't it - "transwomen are women because I say so. Believe me or I'll call you names if you don't".

Until you can come up with something better than that, your "debate" is doomed. People are increasingly seeing through it, because all they have to do to be vilified is ask questions.

And once people see through the bullshit, there's no going back.

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/05/2018 17:19

I’m amused you think I’m ill educated. :) I’m a career scientist with four degrees and more letters after my name than in it.

Like I say, bring on this extensive peer reviewed research. There’s a few of us GC scientists on here, we would love to see it. We scientists are an open minded bunch - you show me a body of evidence that’s peer reviewed, repeated and well constructed and I’ll change my mind. There’s not a scientist alive working who hasn’t changed their minds in the light of new evidence, it’s part of the process.

Or keep on about hateybigotechochambernastyladies. Up to you.

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 17:05

"No, you've asked me to hunt down peer-reviewed material (much of which is behind a paywall) which will take a considerable amount of time to gather. You will then not read it, and post to non-peer reviewed content to justify why you have no intention of changing your stance."

It's you who said there are "extensive scientific/ medical and psychological research"

I'm simply asking you what they are.

I also asked "what do you think it proves?" which doesn't require you tracking down anything - I'm asking your opinion.

I wonder what you think the extensive studies prove? Because it's not safety of hormones, or of puberty blockers, or success of transition by measures such as mental health.

So what do these extensive studies prove?

Also, this is a bullshit stance, which promotes the continued spread of dogma. I'be lost count of the times I've seen an intersectional feminist complain about emotional labour os suggest someone else go google, or educate themselves, without recommending any sources.

It's a bullshit get-out. You're accusing the other person of being ill-educated without providing any evidence that you are not ill-educated yourself.

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/05/2018 17:03

As I've said - you're not open to hearing proof smile there's plenty available. I see no need to waste my time on a lost cause

Bring it on. Here are some facts. You’re welcome to rebut them but you will need evidence. Yelling bigot/echo chamber and all the nice buzzwords isn’t debate.

Humans cannot change sex
Transwomen remain Male
Transwomen have Male patterns of sex offending and violent offending
Self ID will reduce protections for women and girls
Self ID will dilute child safeguarding procedures for all children
Most children diagnosed as trans desist

If there’s plenty of scientific research, and oodles of proof, bring it. I’m a scientist - you show me a peer reviewed body of work and I’m open.

Show me how humans can change sex, and I’ll put a call in to the Nobel committee and tell them their search is over for the year.

Moonkissedlegs · 15/05/2018 17:02

Take the woman who is discriminated against at work for example. Now some of that discrimination will be straight up sex based, for example not giving a job to a woman of child bearing age because she might have a baby.

Some of it might be 'gender' based. Ie. Assuming that a woman isn't cut out for a specific role because women are too 'emotional' or not 'authoratitive' enough or 'too authoratitive for a woman' or whatever. But that gender based discrimination is still based upon the fact that that person has a vagina: is female.

Ultimately women are oppressed on the basis of the sex.

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 17:00

Hope you like my lion, by the way. He identifies as a sealion.

But please don't suggest he might have the same urges other lions, who don't identify as sealions, do.

There are NO studies that show sealion-identifying-lions are dangerous to sealions, so therefore they're not a danger.

(What's that you're saying? "There are no studies at all, absence of proof is not proof of absence, and anyway it's obvious lions have lion-like urges?" Nonsense I say!).

Bibijayne · 15/05/2018 16:59

@whyaresquishiesnotsquishy

No, you've asked me to hunt down peer-reviewed material (much of which is behind a paywall) which will take a considerable amount of time to gather. You will then not read it, and post to non-peer reviewed content to justify why you have no intention of changing your stance.

It's a classic derailing technique used online and I have no intention of playing along.

My purpose and point is to highlight for all to see that many, many people do not share your views on this matter.

AssassinatedBeauty · 15/05/2018 16:58

Well, you haven't actually responded to the points made. I know you think you have, but you really haven't. Which is a shame, as you are clearly able to respond, as you state, but you don't want to. I don't see how that will convince anyone who is unsure of their position that your interpretation is correct.

Bibijayne · 15/05/2018 16:55

@AssassinatedBeauty

Why not let them read the thread? :)

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