Debunking some myths

I’ve got a question for you bibi

Why do you think women who have dedicated their entire lives to women’s rights, gay rights, equality and dismantling gender have suddenly decided to become, in your words ‘bigots’?

Does it not strike you as odd that a group of women who have never shown any signs of bigotry before have suddenly gone for this issue?

Why do you think that may be?

Radical feminism has been trying to dismantle gender since the year dot.

We’re not going to told we have to have certain behaviours and feelings to be a woman by misogynists, and we’re not going to be told that if someone has certain behaviours and feelings then they must be women by misogynists claiming to be woke either.

Bibi

I don’t think anyone is conflating sex with gender, in fact I think everyone is very aware of the difference.

You say that someone being known as their new gender and not their biological sex doesn’t affect women well I’m sorry but I’m going to have to disagree with you there and this is reason why.

Gender is not innate, by its very nature as a social construct it changes over time and what society you’re in. Gender is the tool the patriarchy uses in order to keep people in their sexed roles, as a radical feminist I reject gender, I have a personality, a sex and then some gender crap I’ve picked up from my conditioning.
The trans ideology reinforces the unproven claim that gender is innate, this is bad for women (and men actually) as it strengthens the prison of gender. Instead of having people who all just do whatever they like regardless of sex, trans ideology has the category man and woman and your behaviours and feelings decide which box you fit into, and if you fit into neither your non binary.
This strengthens the boxes for everyone else.

I reject gender but I’m not non binary as I am of the sex class female and as a result have experienced opression because of that, I have suffered in my career because of the assumption that at some point I’ll gestate a baby. This is sex based opression, not gender based. That won’t happen to a trans woman and I reserve the right to name it.

I 100% support trans people to call themselves what they like, dress how they like, present themselves how they like, but I would also like to be able to keep the category woman sex based not gender based. I’m not a woman because I have long hair or like to hang out with other girls or prefer netball to football, I’m a woman because I belong to the sex category female and am an adult.

Trans ideology gives individuals the freedom to choose with gender box to be in, whilst reinforcing the boxes for everyone else.
Radical feminism smashes all the boxes and allows people to just be who the fuck they want to be.

Can I ask why you want to get rid of all sex segregated spaces, @Bibijayne? What is the benefit to women and girls of doing that?

Yes exactly. Why exactly do people think that women should want sex segregated spaces eradicated? How does it make things better?

Infantilising language 'bless' and gendered language 'Flouce' pretty much indicate that no, you do not want reasoned debate. Which makes it a totally pointless exercise.

I used flounce. I did not use bless.

You’re still doing the thing where you sulk and say debating is pointless. It’s not pointless it’s just that you don’t have a leg to stand on logically. So the only recourse you have is name calling and accusations of hatred and bigotry. That isn’t debate. Debate is arguing your side.

I do want debate. I am debating, or attempting to engage you in that. My stance, my arguments are the following and I can and will back any specific point up with a reasoned argument.

Transwomen remain Male
Sex segregated spaces are important for safety privacy and dignity of women and girls (and also important for privacy and dignity of men.)
Humans cannot change sex
Sex is an immutable biological fact
Gender is largely a social construct - the set of expectations a society has of each member of that sex (and frankly the sooner we smash or expand those gender stereotypes the better.)
Self ID is dangerous because it will endanger women and girls
Self ID is dangerous because it will dilute safeguarding practice for all children, regardless of sex or gender identity.
Most children who identify as trans desist this affirmative treatment is morally and ethically wrong.

Those are the basics. So please, let’s debate. You tell me why you disagree with the points above. Without resorting to calling anyone a bigot, or or saying it’s pointless.

I can expand on any of those points. Pick one or two - tell me why I’m wrong and let’s argue (in a nice polite way.)

You aren’t cis gendered by the way. There’s no such thing. Cis is a term used correctly when talking about isomers in stereochemistry or when talking about the proximity of a control element of a specific gene. It’s grossly offensive to use it to describe a woman.

you're

Woman is not an identity, trans is. Stating your trans is the the identity, which is cool, identify as trans, goth, emo, whatevs, kudos.

I'm also a cis-gendered woman, so I'm not in a position to answer specific points regarding definitions and the spectrum of trans-peoples identities.

You have asked whether we'd accept fully passing transwomen in our spaces, though, and I shared the Stonewall definition to make the point that things have gone far beyond that.

Essentially, what we're being asked to do now is accept any biological male who decides to enter a toilet or a communal changing room, regardless of appearance or motivations, because challenging them is transphobic.

Can I ask why you want to get rid of all sex segregated spaces, @Bibijayne? What is the benefit to women and girls of doing that?

To deny one group a voice because their experiences are different is unhelpful.

We're not denying transwomen a voice. We're saying we don't think they're women.

You say "they say you change gender which is different to sex". So, to be clear, are you saying you think transwomen change their gender but not their sex?

This matters, it's fundamental.

@AssassinatedBeauty True. And I have tried to address a number of those points before and some more below.

@Teacuphiccup no, they say you change gender :) which is different to sex (a few posters have been keen to conflate the two concepts to fit a specific narrative). At which point I, and many other people see no reason why someone cannot use the gender terms associated with their new gender. It alleviates a great pain from one person, without in any way shape or form diminishing my identity.

To a few different posters:

As I've said before, I prefer unisex and gender neutral spaces to spaces segregated based on sex or gender. So am at odds with many of the posters asking specific points around that.

I'm also a cis-gendered woman, so I'm not in a position to answer specific points regarding definitions and the spectrum of trans-peoples identities. I can only comment on reports and studies I have read and experiences told to me by trans-people I have met.

I do think feminism has a place for women of all backgrounds and experiences. My experiences as a white, middle class cis-woman are likely to be very different to other women's. To deny one group a voice because their experiences are different is unhelpful.

@Bibijayne this is the thing - we've been debating this for months or even years now, and we're yet to find one single example of a trans activist who will give reasoned arguments.

This brings us to the conclusion that there are no reasoned arguments.
Are we wrong about that? If so, please tell us why?

You still haven't said what you think your evidence proves, nor have you given us anything that refutes any of our claims.

And you're back on personal attacks. "people baying for blood because someone dare question their world view"

We're not baying for blood, honestly. We're asking you, repeatedly, to offer some proof of your beliefs so that we may understand them.

We - and others reading - have no idea why you believe transwomen are women, other than 'because you do'. I really would like to understand the thought process - can you offer any compelling evidence? If not for us, then for the many lurkers who are not "baying for blood"

Apology..the definition of woman I took from genderedinnovations.stanford.edu/terms/gender.html supported by European Commission and nsf.

There are plenty of posters who have asked nicely, @Bibijayne. I find it helpful to ignore posters who I think are rude/dismissive and focus on having an effective discussion with more productive people.

@Bowlofbabelfish

Infantilising language 'bless' and gendered language 'Flouce' pretty much indicate that no, you do not want reasoned debate. Which makes it a totally pointless exercise. Especially as whenever a goal is met, the goal posts are moved.

I'm happy to debate with people who want to debate. Not with people baying for blood because someone dare question their world view. To be frank, it achieves nothing.

First article says Gender identity disorder has some genetic component.

Wpath.. how best to help people with gender dyspohria and more general gender non compliance. Great. Suggests that these guidelines may need to be varied by culture...not surprising since gender is a cultural concept.

So my conclusions from those two articles are that gender is a social concept. People are all different. Therefore unsurprisingly If you force ridged gender expectations on people based on their sex then many people will feel that they do not match their gender. In some cases this can become extreme so that the persons mental health suffers.

So please someone explain which of my opinions listed below I am meant to have changed as a result of the recommended reading?

Gender != sex. Otherwise gid could not exist.
Woman != man. Women = born female and socialised accordingly.
Trans = wanting to be socialised in discordance with their sex. The essenc of gid
feminist = socialisation irrespective of their sex ( my form of feminism anyway)

The rates of violence by men to women is a result of their sex not gender. No one was attacked for cake baking, they were attacked because they were physically weaker and had female genitals . As such that there is a need to encourage society to respect sexual boundaries ( those genitals belong to a human not a piece of meat. ) through eg separate changing rooms. The trauma woman can experience as a result of sexual violence means that we should be allowed to insist on no men in situations such as rape crisis centres.

This implies that there is a limit on the maximum possible socialisation of transwomen. Many transwomen respect this.

Ah bless, Bibi, you seem to think that it's OK for a lesbian to not want a relationship with a transwoman and everyone agrees.

Can I introduce you to Riley J Dennis, the 6'2" tall American transwoman who grew up playing soccer (hello gender as a cultural construct!!), had facial feminisation surgery last year and of the author of such informational videos as (personally, I think they should be); (errrr, yes, yes they are); and the smash hit video (spoiler alert: yes, they are)

know that in the end, you are fortunately not the majority

I think you'll find we are.

Trans issues haven't hit the mainstream yet, not really.

If you go ask people in the street if people with penises can be women and/or lesbians, you'll get short shrift!

It takes quite a bit of conditioning to believe that black is white, and most of the general public haven't been brainwashed to believe that men can be women, thankfully.

Most of them think transgender=transexual i.e. someone who has had, or wants to have a sex change.

The general public don't realise there are fully intact male bodied people demanding people call them women, that lesbians sleep with them, that muslim female beauticians should be sued if they won't give "women" with dicks a sack & crack wax, that convicted rapists be housed with female prisoners.

They will though, right about the time the voices of the desistors get too loud to ignore any more.

Bibijayne you have been asked lots of questions here that you haven't been able to answer.

The nature of debate is that you put across an argument and then back it up with your own words, sometimes with peer reviewed links etc to support. Then people might rebute what you say, they may ask you questions. So then you counter argue, answering the questions as you go. You may then ask the other person some questions of your own to back up your argument and so on and so forth.

You don't state your position, come back with a load of stuff that doesn't answer any of your opponents questions, link to some fairly unrelated stuff and then just call everyone bigoted and hateful because they don't agree with you.

The standard of debate on MN is usually very high, not just on trans or feminist issues but on lots of stuff. I have certainly had to question a lot of my positions over the years from debating with people on here.

Those academic essays don’t disagree with my world view.

I believe that people can get gender dysphoria, I think people with gender dysphoria should be treat with kindness and should access treatment and appropriate medical care.

I don’t think that having gender dysphoria literally means you change sex though, and those papers don’t say that either.

Aaaand FLOUNCE!

Look we are just asking for a reasoned argument. You say that transwomen are women - but you offer no factual evidence. You offer no rational argument, no analysis, no evidence.

Absolutely no one on here except you has used the kind of language you’re using - bigot. Echo chamber. Hatred. Wrong side of history. We’ve just set out what we believe and backed it up with reasoned argument.

If you can’t do that, and if you can’t answer simple yes/no questions and explain your beliefs, then consider that your position has no substance. TRAs always flounce. Always. Because their position does not stand up to scrutiny.

If your position had substance you could defend it simply, reasonably, without resorting to name calling. You cannot.

Honestly, no one's asking for an academic essay. Just pick one of your links, say what it supports and which part is particularly relevant.

I'm not in the mood or business of writing academic essays because you don't want to bother reading links that disagree with your world view :)

As I've said, your reactions over and over again have shown that you're close-minded, bigoted echo chamber that has no intention of actually listening to any views which divert from your entrenched opinions.

Have fun, but know that in the end, you are fortunately not the majority and you do not speak for all women or even all feminists.

You asked for sources about the difference between gender and sex. And how people can change gender

But, nobody asked for this.

Bowlofbabelfish invited you to rebut these points with evidence. Do you think any of your links do this? If so please let us know which ones. I would expect Bowlofbabelfish as a scientist might well have have access to some of the paywalled stuff.

• Humans cannot change sex
• Transwomen remain Male
• Transwomen have Male patterns of sex offending and violent offending
• Self ID will reduce protections for women and girls
• Self ID will dilute child safeguarding procedures for all children
• Most children diagnosed as trans desist

I asked you what the "extensive studies" you mentioned were and what you though they proved. You've posted some studies, so you're half way there on my query, great! But - what do you think they prove? That's what I asked.

Meanwhile several other posters asked you to respond to points raised or expand on your ideas. You could do any of these by referencing studies to back up your points.

Well it does rather prove the point I've been making doesn't it smile

Not really no. It proves you’re twisting yourself into knots to avoid answering with a yes or no the question I originally asked, which is if you believe human beings can change sex.

It’s the same response I’ve had from quite a few TRAs - none will answer the question with a straight yes or no, and yet they expect and demand women to give up rights based on everybody believing that - a stance no one actually believes is true.

So yes or no? Can humans change sex?