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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Calling lawyers and data protection gurus

117 replies

MsBeaujangles · 21/03/2018 10:20

What is the legal situation when it comes to being placed on a published list which is claimed to be a list of 'TERFs and transphobes'?
I am thinking defamation of character comes in to play if the suggestion is that the people on the list are bigoted, incite hate and deny trans people their rights. I am on such a list and am confident that I have not said anything remotely even 'anti trans'.
I think sending Cease and Desist letters could legitimately be sent, demanding the list holder immediately cease and desist their unlawful defamation and provide prompt written reassurance within 10 days they they will cease and desist from further defamation.
Whilst the list is of Twitter names, my account is not anonymous.

Also, is there anything preventing people from applying defamation law when they are very publicly called transphobic?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 21/03/2018 13:42

I'm guessing that serious harm might also include being the victim of a twitter pile on (harm to mental health) or receiving abusive or threatening messages (threat to your personal safety which might be carried out) or some sort of doxing (again threat to your personal safety)

AnchorDownDeepBreath · 21/03/2018 13:39

Actually I think some of them are, in relation to GDPR.

You're right; but they wouldn't apply until GDPR comes into force.

RedToothBrush · 21/03/2018 13:38

Sorry that dodgy link above
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/26/crossheading/defences/enacted

RedToothBrush · 21/03/2018 13:36

Defamation of character I suspect would be highly relevant, especially if you can demonstrate that being accused of something you haven't done - which relates to something on twitter - has had a negative effect on your employment or role in an organisation.

This would include being called in for a disciplinary even if no action was taken, because of the stress it might cause you.

But having to demonstrate you had been affected negatively is not necessarily a obstacle.

The big thing to prove if you went down this route was that you had been the victim of 'serious harm'.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation_Act_2013
The Defamation Act 2013 (c 26) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, which reformed English defamation law on issues of the right to freedom of expression and the protection of reputation. It also comprised a response to perceptions that the law as it stood was giving rise to libel tourism and other inappropriate claims.

The Act changed existing criteria for a successful claim, by requiring claimants to show actual or probable serious harm (which, in the case of for-profit bodies, is restricted to serious financial loss), before suing for defamation in England or Wales, setting limits on geographical relevance, removing the previous presumption in favour of a trial by jury, and curtailing sharply the scope for claims of continuing defamation (in which republication or continued visibility constitutes ongoing renewed defamation). It also enhanced existing defences, by introducing a defence for website operators hosting user-generated content (provided they comply with a procedure to enable the complainant to resolve disputes directly with the author of the material concerned or otherwise remove it), and introducing new statutory defences of truth, honest opinion, and "publication on a matter of public interest" or privileged publications (including peer reviewed scientific journals), to replace the common law defences of justification, fair comment, and the Reynolds defence respectively. However, it did not quite codify defamation law into a single statute.

The defences are on the wiki page and lie with the person who defamed to show that they had reason to believe (evidence) that you were indeed what they said you were.
the actual act here for more detail [[http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/26/crossheading/defences/enacted]]

In this case, I would suggest this defence would not hold up well in court.

The actual text of the Defamation Act 2013 is here:
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/26/contents/enacted

The serious harm clause is here:

Serious harm
(1)
A statement is not defamatory unless its publication has caused or is likely to cause serious harm to the reputation of the claimant.^
(2)
For the purposes of this section, harm to the reputation of a body that trades for profit is not “serious harm” unless it has caused or is likely to cause the body serious financial loss.

I would argue that if you were 'likely to lose your job' from this or actually had would potentially be sufficient grounds (hence why being called in for a disciplinary even if no action was taken would be a big deal).

I'm not a lawyer nor have any legal training, so don't take my word for it. From this though, I'd say there might be reason to pursue this further and consult with an actual lawyer.

(FTW, I don't think I've seen much on MN that would class as defamation against Lily, simply because there is a very good defence in that its in the public interest because of the office and role Lily holds...)

KochabRising · 21/03/2018 11:38

3) Nosetothesun's points aren't really legally relevant

Actually I think some of them are, in relation to GDPR.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 21/03/2018 11:35

Interesting

I wonder what the legal position is being added to a lists on twitter which have names like 'Die Cis Scum', TERF Cunts', 'Cunts' and Die Cunts'

I am on many lists like this, yet twitter do nothing about it. But throw me in twitter jail regulary for saying a male cannot become a female.

MissPiggysKarateChop · 21/03/2018 11:26

@GalwayGalery and @SirVixofVixHall I am angry on your behalf, this could have repercussions in your off line life and quite frankly...

I am on the list too (have another thread about it). I assume I am on it largely because of who I follow- well known feminists including Karen Ingala Smith and Julie Bindell.

You should not be put on a list claiming your are any kind of bigot because of who you follow - you could be following them for any number of reasons. In this case these are well respected, intelligent women who are published or doing important work, why the hell shouldn't you follow them? It is ridiculous.

I'm sick of the way Labour excuse this person as if they are some poor lamb while interrogating and expelling women for far less. Labour where is the accountability in your party? Does it not apply to everyone now?

CeciledeVolanges · 21/03/2018 11:20

I am neither lawyer nor data protection guru, but I am a law student and i would suggest the following:

  1. do check out the General Data Protection Regulation (must be implemented by 25 May 2018) and the Data Protection Bill currently going through Parliament, although I think if the list has been published in any way in a way which would tend to undermine the views of right-thinking people towards you it could be defamation, see also the case of Clift v Slough Borough Council. I'm not sure how useful that is though unless you have any legally qualified or very rich people on the list who want to take legal action, as legal aid is not available for defamation claims.

  2. If the list is held by a public authority, have you considered a freedom of information request to disclose the list and the names on it? Even if they refuse, you can escalate your request.

  3. Nosetothesun's points aren't really legally relevant. But they might be relevant for some kind of expose or investigative journalism if you can find a journalist or news source to publicise it.

SirVixofVixHall · 21/03/2018 11:19

Galway, I am fucking livid too. Solidarity.

SirVixofVixHall · 21/03/2018 11:18

I am on the list too (have another thread about it). I assume I am on it largely because of who I follow- well known feminists including Karen Ingala Smith and Julie Bindell. I've never engaged with, or tried to follow, Lily M, and I am a polite Tweeter.( I mainly tweet about things entirely unrelated to feminism). I am deeply concerned about the repercussions of being on the list, especially possible violence, as my real name has been published.

GalwayGalery · 21/03/2018 11:17

I've just emailed [email protected] to complain about my full (very unusual) name on the list. I am furious and I was scathing, I work in higher education and some of my students follow LM, it is a matter of time before I'm called in 'for words'. I included in my complaint that I appreciate their low intellect and immaturity but it is no excuse for this. I have never interacted with them, nor tweeted / re-tweeted anything transphobic, yet apparently twitter is safer without me? I'm fucking livid.

Nosetothesun · 21/03/2018 11:07

There may be other questions to consider...

Why was TERFblocker set up?
How else can it be used?
Who was involved in managing it (there are a number now not just LM's)?
In collecting this data, in what circumstances might this be helpful now and in the future?
Are there benefits gained from so much focus being on LM?
Who gains from having this data?
Are there a number of ways Terfblocker could be used and if so
what are the implications of being blocked from the accounts of people who would be involved in TRA or seeing their Twitter activity?
If there are accounts which add huge numbers, why might this be?
Could there be deliberate, strategic aspects?

MsBeaujangles · 21/03/2018 10:52

That’s the one!

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KochabRising · 21/03/2018 10:42

Is this the LM blocklist?

I’m very interested to see what the legal view is on this.

MsBeaujangles · 21/03/2018 10:39

I’m on the list.
I have been on Twitter for 5 years. I’ve tweeted less than 50 times, including retweets!
None of my tweets or retweets could be construed as transphobic!

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MrsFogi · 21/03/2018 10:26

I don't claim to know anything about this etc but you may also want to look a the new rules from the General Data Protection Register if your name etc is being put on such a list.

PsychoPumpkin · 21/03/2018 10:24

Have you been placed on this list?

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