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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lesbian's and the Trans debate

234 replies

DJLippy · 20/03/2018 03:36

I was wondering what peoples thoughts were regarding the impacts that transgenderism was having specifically on lesbians and the 'erasure' of lesbian identity. I am concerned that many public debates are ignoring their concerns. I don't think the LGBT 'community' is representing them properly and I think that women need to understand and address the specific concerns they have. Lesbian, bi-sexual and straight women should speak up together because I think that we have an insight that men lack.

If you haven't done so already I would ask everyone to check out Magdalen Berns who speaks so eloquently about the trans debate but it's impacts on young gay and lesbian people.

www.youtube.com/channel/UCvTTakI97sQ4SkMnsH8r0qQ

I think there are two main areas that I have identified are of particular concern.

  1. The extremely high (2:1) rates of referrals to gender-dysphoria clinics of girls and young lesbians. Heather-Brunswick Evans work is very interesting here, especially as regards the impact that porn and an overly-sexualised media is having female self-identity. I have heard people express fears that this is in effect 21st century conversion therapy whereby young gay and lesbian children will be effectively steralised and neutered.

  2. The encroachment of transwomen on lesbian spaces . I think that Reiley J Dennis is a brilliant example of this. In my opinion he is a predatory and dangerous misogonist who is using the 'trans' cover to bully and intimidate young lesbian or sexuality questioning women. This was really brought home to me yesterday after I had a conversation on twitter with a male lesbian which quickly escalated into a creepy and overtly sexualised interaction. He obviously did not have a 'female' brain - he behaved like a classic misoginist sex pest, who did not respect my boundaries even after I made this clear to him that he was making me feel uncomfortable. It really gave me an insight into how this would impact on lesbians. I think that we take our spaces for granted. I lived in Manchester which is known for it's gay scene but still it only has 1 lesbian bar. It's important that these spaces are protected, especially for young lesbians who need a safe space to explore their sexuality.

This is not meant as an attack on trans people. I am not saying that all trans people are dangerous predators or that they don't exist. However, there is an alarming rise in transgender treatments and a small minority of very dangerous and aggressive autogenophiles. It's right that we should ask questions.

I hope to start a discussion and invite comments from anyone with an insight or any worries. This is just two areas I found of particular concern from my own research I'm hoping other people can share their expertise. I know that I am not a lesbian but it reminds me of that famous line about Nazi Germany.

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one ..."

I think that it would be really helpful if we started to educate ourselves about the threats that lesbians are facing and started to speak out more. Lesbian, Bi-sexual, straight or male: United we stand, divided we fall.

OP posts:
LifelongVaginaOwner · 20/03/2018 13:57

I've been reading Stonewall's 'Vision for Change' (#prayforLifelong). They define sex as assigned to a person on the basis of primary sex characteristics (genitalia) and reproductive functions. Weirdly though they define intersex as amongst other things a term used to describe a person who may have the biological attributes of both sexes (my emphasis).

They're all over the place.

Datun · 20/03/2018 13:50

Try asking Stonewall what the definition of lesbian is. They will refuse to say a woman who same-sex attracted.

They consistently refuse to use words that are sex exclusive.

They will say woman to woman attraction. Which, according to them can be a heterosexual relationship.

Ask them define it in terms of sex.

They can't.

Pratchet · 20/03/2018 13:38

I asked you to ask official LGBT groups if they support exclusive same sex attraction. Real, verifiable LGB groups. None so blind as those who won't see. And by the way I know of a lesbian who was punched by a TIM when she rejected him.

DjunaBarnes · 20/03/2018 13:27

Behold we tried respectful conversation. for years. we tried having a discussion about the contest of rights and we're told we were bigots and to shut up, we tried talking about how sex and gender are different and got told we we're vagina feminists, we tried talking about how lesbian desire does not encompass men, that we have valid sexualities outside of hetrosexuality and got called vagina fetishists and transphobes. we tried talking about our needs in the organisations we founded and we're told we had some kind of magical privilege over hetrosexual men and to be smaller, be more supportive, demand less. we tried talking about our worries about young women diving into bodily alteration they can never undo and we're told some bullshit about authentic selves and affirmation and made up suicide stats.

We tried talking and got screamed at and threatened, and now when finally we're starting to have this conversation it's all "why can't you just be nice". like no woman's heard that before.

WiggyPig · 20/03/2018 13:27

"I've never encountered this in real life, only on twitter"

"IT HAPPENS AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME GO ON TWITTER"

Hmm
rowdywoman1 · 20/03/2018 13:21

Beholdtheflorist
The trouble is that twitter is given a power way beyond all reason.
How many news reports do you see that includes 'quotes' from twitter?
I loathe twitter but I can see that this is the main medium that is being used to bully and harass lesbians and women. Have a look at this - it's chilling:
fairplayforwomen.com/misogyny_hate_silencing/

Beholdtheflorist · 20/03/2018 13:14

Pratchett

Wiggy I have many screenshots of trans people saying same sex attraction is transphobic. If you don't believe me, go on Twitter and ask, say, the LGBT Greens or LGBT Labour if exclusive same sex attraction is morally acceptable

Oh lord, the day we start using the views of a small minority on Twitter as decent reference material is the day we should all just give up. There's a ton of holocaust deniers furiously banging their little fists on their keyboards dispensing 280 characters of righteous bile. But I don't think they are representative of everybody or indeed right. (Or should be allowed to have access to the internet for that matter, but that's by the by.) You simply can't hold Twitter up as a normal, rational view held by the majority.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could have a respectful conversation that didn't mirror the worst of the Twitter echo chamber? I use it and enjoy it but it's not a great system for exchanging ideas. You can't break complicated ideas into 280 characters. Twitter is for polemics. Not discussion.

DJLippy · 20/03/2018 12:49

Like always with this debate I feel like I should have just taken the red pill and just stayed in Narnia. The more I educate myself the more concerned I become. I think that this is something which many women can understand - not being able to exert your boundaries or even see things for what they are.

I had my peaktrans moment on Saturday watching Magdalen's video's. Before that point I'd been conciliatory, trying to find a compromise. Transwomen are obviously not women, is it OK if we just agree that they're transwomen? Why did I need her to tell me to stand up for myself before I did? "Do lesbians have penis'?" Why is that sentence so much easier to answer than, do women have a penis. NO - Of course not! Therefore - transwomen are men. At what point in your transition do you become a "woman." When you get fake tits. Invert your penis. When you "pass" and nobody can tell. I don't believe in "ladybrain" it's unscientific claptrap! What is so wrong in expressing this obvious statement of fact - why all this hostility? Why do they even care what I think - I don't care if they think that Transwomen are women.

I have been researching this subject for months but it's sooooooo hard to find reliable evidence. Like, really good evidence. Who can really understand scientific papers? You just have to read propaganda and interpreting what you're reading is so difficult. Eventually, I felt I had a good handle on things but I had some questions so I started to ask people on twitter. I was so scared of being branded a TERF that I walked on eggshells the whole time. I was so polite, so careful to use correct terms. But if I stepped a foot out of line the reaction was awful! HOW COULD YOU KNOW YOU'RE NOT TRANS/NON-BINARY/INTER. Then they call you a terf and block you.

If they'd stop assuming so much I may have been able to tell them about my own gender non-conforming childhood, my own bi-sexuality, my own experiences. They didn't want to hear about it because they didn't care.

Meanwhile, whenever I've asked 'TERFS' they've answered me properly, polite and knowledgeable. What was the difference between the Terfs and the Trans?

One group were women and the other were men. That is how ingrained these systems of deference are. Why is everyone going along with it? Why are they pretending that they believe Lily Madrigan is actually a woman?

We need to call this out and say no - respect our female bodies because without it you wouldn't even be here. Do you know what you did to your mothers urinary system? If you really wanted to be an authentic 'woman' you'd have figured out how to give yourself an artificial meonpause by now!

I think that the 'lesbian angle' would be a great way to fight back. Initially I thought I was going to be called homophobe for questioning any of this but it could be flipped around on people if they know the truth. The most annoying thing about this debate is I think that key elements are missing from the MSM debate. Bathrooms are a minor. Prisons are more important. The medicalisation of young gay kids. I also think that the encroachment of men into lesbians spaces is repugnant and something that all women would understand, if only it was explained to them.

OP posts:
doctorcuntybollocks · 20/03/2018 12:39

And don't use 'cunty' as an insult.

Pratchet · 20/03/2018 12:00

Wiggy I have many screenshots of trans people saying same sex attraction is transphobic. If you don't believe me, go on Twitter and ask, say, the LGBT Greens or LGBT Labour if exclusive same sex attraction is morally acceptable.

Pratchet · 20/03/2018 11:57

The 'I'm aghast at being used as a victim in feminist arguments..' is an argument from the trans mothership. I agree with you OP.

WiggyPig · 20/03/2018 11:53

There's no need to be cunty about it Lang, I don't have to share your EXACT list of gender-critical priorities in your EXACT order to qualify as not living under a rock thanks Hmm

For clarity, pressure on GNC young lesbians to describe themselves as trans does worry me - but the idea that lesbianism is inherently transphobic is not one which I have seen in actual real-life LGBT circles, only amongst "cis allies" on Twitter.

Datun · 20/03/2018 11:51

DjunaBarnes

Really moving post.

Beerincomechampagnetastes · 20/03/2018 11:47

Excellent post djanu

Ekphrasis · 20/03/2018 11:37

Actually, the first whiff of all this I got was from a lesbian colleague a couple of years ago who mentioned in passing they'd been to a local new lgbt meeting but it seemed to be mostly dominated by the T part and she didn't feel any of her issues or thoughts or concerns were represented, considered or even cared about.

DjunaBarnes · 20/03/2018 11:34

I’m a lesbian and the assault by transactvism in the last 10 years has been destructive in a number of ways.

Our spaces have all but disappeared, certainly outside a couple of large cities. There are pretty much no lesbian bars left and no lesbian nights, there area generalised ‘queer’ spaces - which are dominated by hetro-queers and trans - and there are mens spaces. Ironically the men’s spaces have really prospered in areas like Manchester and Brighton. But the spaces we used to have to ourselves have mostly gone and are used by male lesbian cosplayers to validate their identities. Trying to keep them out simply doesn’t work. I spoke to someone recently how was organising lesbian events in secret now, the problem of trans males altering the events had got so bad. I'm sure some of the few spaces will survive but for lots of women the option of just staying out of 'lesbian' spaces becomes much more attractive.

There’s the creepy, boundary-pressing “male-lesbians”. It’s really difficult to describe how not like lesbians men who transitions are and what a profound alterations to what remains of the culture of lesbians this is, they are straight men and we shouldn’t be expected to accommodate them. And for us as women who in so many cases have been punished by society for a refusal to perform femininity to be told by our previous allies that they are women because of this performance is really fucking insulting. It implies, as we’ve heard all our lives, that we’re not women because we’re not playing patriarchy’s game, there’s far too little push back about “cis” in general, but the idea - even if you accept it - that there can be such a thing as a ‘cis lesbian’ is insane. It’s really the deepest area of betrayal by gay rights and mainstream feminism of lesbians.

The impact on young lesbians is destructive. Many young lesbian women are deeply gender non-conforming, it’s really hard growing up female with the endless assault by society and media on what you should look like, how you should behave, made to make yourself smaller, less bold, less confident in order to fit being a woman. There’s a whole load of added stuff that happens when you are also gay in a society that is so profoundly anti-lesbian. Your ugly and uncool and unfuckable, mannish and revolting and mostly have no one to talk to - that goes for more gender confirming young lesbians but it’s most pronounced for butch-er women. It’s no wonder that the option of being medicated out of homosexuality is so appealing. I and most of the lesbian women I’ve talked to, experienced the fantasy of being ‘really male’ but thankfully grew into ourselves before the normalisation of homophobic medicalisation, but that growing into yourself takes a long time and it’s hard. Responsible gay and lesbian organisations, children’s services and therapists would be helping these young women come to terms with themselves instead of affirming a fantasy about opting out of their own bodies and the reality of being lesbian. Places like the tavistock are respectable here, but there’s a growth of other clinics and off-label drug prescription for those who organisations like mermaids persuade with their dodgy stats that it’s affirm or suicide. But this is one of the long tail effects of clause 28 - we chose to fail young gay people rather than fight the argument that we ‘recruit’ children. Our organisations chose to fail young gay people. I don’t know how we come back from this, part of this really is our fault.

aRespectableBureaudeChange · 20/03/2018 11:02

Exploit is a word I think is very appropriate in the gender debate.

aRespectableBureaudeChange · 20/03/2018 11:00

I came to the trans sexual debate as I wondered if anyone had noticed the link between a sub-set within autistic people and anxiety with gender confusion. Yes, found out lots had been researched so my observed correlation was borne out.

I have diagnosed DC and meet lots of others at support groups etc for over 20 years now. It is a subset of autistic people - but they are vulnerable and emotionally very young for their biological age - usually catch up mid 20s. I think early encouragement to transition is worrying.

Dysphoria is overly represented by diagnosed people with autism - probably lots of undiagnosed too.

autismawarenesscentre.com/autism-transgender-gender-dysphoria/

Beerincomechampagnetastes · 20/03/2018 10:55

I think Magdalen Berns is a great role model for all young people. My 15 yr old dd was on some questionable feminist boards before I pointed her in the direction of Magdalen who she adores. Dd is heterosexual.
Gender identity is big news for young people and Riley and people like him exploit that. I see it as a variation of grooming without a doubt.
As far as my lesbian sisters are concerned (I’m heterosexual), I’m actually incadensant at how they are treated by the trans ideology. I don’t see them as victims as a fellow woman I don’t see my self as a victim, but I think we both suffer under the violent Rhetoric of aggressive males.

Stillscreaming · 20/03/2018 10:46

If you ask twenty lesbians anything, you'll get twenty different lesbians views and that's great and valid, then a number of bisexuals and straight women will join in, drowning out the views of the lesbians, which is more problematic but we're well used to it. Grin

This lesbians has no problem with young people attending gender clinics. I understand that of those presenting under a certain age, the overwhelming majority will turn out not to have life long gender dysphoria and that's fantastic. I think that not being trans is easier than being trans although I'm aware, for some, that's a contentious view. Those presenting later, are far more likely to be trans and more likely to go on to have some kind of treatment. Clinicians seem to have a good handle on sorting out who needs what and I wouldn't presume to know more than them.

I know that the number of children seeing help for gender related issues has risen exponentially over the last decades and I also know that the numbers of children seeking help for all kinds of distress and mental health problems has risen exponentially too. I think that children getting professional help for their distress and mental health problems is an overwhelmingly Good Thing and that funding needs to increase in all areas to meet these needs.

I'd like to see a world that was much more open to butch women and presentations of female masculinity. As someone who is attracted to, and has had relationships with, non feminine women, I'm aware of how difficult everyday life can be for them. There seems to be a bit of a squeeze on acceptable types of gender presentation from some sections of the feminist movement and I think that non conforming women, will continue to be a victims of that. I don't see any of them being 'pushed into being trans' but those who favour masculine names, masculine clothes and masculine pronouns, can, on occasion, be made uncomfortable by the 'biology is everything' stance. I do see them hanging with the trans men, although they are perfectly happy with their own bodies.

As for the view that trans women will take over the lesbian community, I don't have much truck with it. I remember when the very same arguments were made about bisexual women; that they would arrive with their straight privilege and tell us what to do, while spreading sexually transmitted infections. It was vaguely annoying to be occasional asked to have a threesome with a man. However, I think that overall lesbians did more to change the views of the bisexual women who wanted to hang out with lesbians, than bisexual women did to change the lesbian community.

That debate did a lot to solidify my view that penises aren't powerful enough to overwhelm the lesbian community and to imagine that they are, is a form of submission to the patriarchy.

As for the ongoing 'cotton ceiling' thing, I find it distressing. The objectification and sense of entitlement over women's bodies isn't unique to lesbians. Straight and bisexual women are also told constantly, that they should be allowing themselves to be used for the sexual pleasure of anyone who asks. We should be loudly and insistently rejecting this on all fronts, raising our voices in unity to shout 'fuck off' at every predator. There is nothing about being a lesbian that has made me less able to tell people I don't want to have sex with, that I don't want to have sex with them, if anything, it might have given me a tiny bit more practice in saying 'no'.

(NB, this post is what I understand is know locally as a 'plop', I'm not going to read any replies or come back and argue my position. I'm finding the aggression of those who disagree with me a tad wearing and very time consuming. I'm supposed to be working today.)

aRespectableBureaudeChange · 20/03/2018 10:36

To clarify: lesbian women are the first adults bearing the main brunt to date from trans pressure.

All our children are being taught to accept gender fluidity via peer pressure/internet and sometimes through schools. What may now look like something 'just affecting lesbians' is not true - they have flagged up where we are heading and all women are educating themselves on wider implications.

aRespectableBureaudeChange · 20/03/2018 10:31

A lot of us are concerned about the gender stereotyping pressure teens are under - kids that aren't sexually interested in anyone (some may be emotionally young for their age and just not interested in anyone yet) are being pressurised into identifying as something/anything and nailing a flag to the mast. In some cases leading to potential infertility.

Issue will ultimately affect all females - and also men that care about females should be looking at this pressure to invade female identity.

Men should be listening not telling women what it is like to be female. We are not speaking on behalf of lesbians - lesbians (should) only be women and their safety is same as for any woman. Not sure why your friends would find that odd.

slug · 20/03/2018 10:14

A fair few of us are also mothers to lesbian daughters

LangCleg · 20/03/2018 09:02

Young women need to be taught about constructing and maintaining their own boundaries

Yes, they do. And you don't think the entire transactivist ideology is antithetical to this? In particular, the hostile environment lesbians, particularly young lesbians, find themselves in? But also the way in which young girls are expected to educate themselves about the presence of "girlpenis" in their changing rooms? And all the rest of the long list?

Because if you don't, I suggest you take a peek out from the rock you've decided to live under.

Try this thread on Twitter, by an Australian lesbian:

twitter.com/Dyketagnan/status/902442537608069122

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 20/03/2018 08:48

On another thread there is a link to Pink News and a reboot of Buffy the Vampire slayer

They are talking about the lesbian relationship and 'willow' said that its a beautiful story about two people identifying as female in a relationship (very paraphrased)

How would it go down if a series advertised itself as a sory of lesbian couple if one was actually a 'women' born male with no surgery

Which could happen

Its funny what's considered groundbreaking