Lesbian's and the Trans debate

The patricharcy doesn't oppresses us for being women

Christ on a bike.

If this shit was confined to university campuses with a load of hyper-privileged students disappearing up their own fundaments, I wouldn't give a toss.

But it isn't. It's producing a generation of policy makers who CANNOT SEE REALITY. By the time they have finished, the country will be in the fucking toilet.

!I'm a lesbian you idiot! An actual lesbian.

It's odd, everyone else has who has claimed to be a lesbian, has put their cards on the table, discussed lesbian history, their part in numerous political struggles, you know, the things that lesbians always do to identify themselves online.

That you haven't doesn't mean you're not a dyke. That you've not discussed one single other topic that relates to lesbians apart from trans people, doesn't mean you're not a dyke. That you've committed the cardinal sin of lesbians of denying other lesbians experience doesn't mean you're not a dyke. However, it makes you unusual and not very representative.

I'll repeat my request that you don't speak for me.

Oppression has to feed a benefit back up the food chain to the oppressor.

That's a uniquely Marxist view, it's not the dictionary definition of opression (or not the only one, you might find it in a dictionary if you look hard enough). and it's not the general understanding of opression.

The Oxford living dictionary defines its most common usage as:

1Prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or exercise of authority.

en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/oppression

That describes perfectly racism, homophobia, classism and disability discrimination.

@ TallulahWaitingInTheRain

I'm not buying into the fallacy that everyone on Mumsnet is heterosexual. In the same way that most women have no problem in distinguishing between a trans woman, who has met all of the requirements to obtain a gender recognition certificate and someone who is trans and 'identifies as a woman on Tuesdays and Fridays', unless it's raining. I'm perfectly happy with distinguishing between a woman who lives as a lesbian and someone who snogged a woman in college and 'identifies' as bisexual.

Some women, including ones who totally disagree with my view, have made it perfectly clear that they are lesbians others, not so much. Some women who don't even claim to be bisexual are also assuming to speak for me, that's frustrating.

Who...Hold on a minute there... Are you really suggesting that the patriarchy is only white??????

The patricharcy doesn't oppresses us for being women, it oppresses us for not being a certain type of white man.

Racism, homophobia, classism, disability discrimination and even sectarianism in their prevalence give lie to the fact that oppression is biologically based.

But discrimination is not oppression.

Oppression has to feed a benefit back up the food chain to the oppressor.

Historically racism was used to oppress. Because of free labour.

And we are still mired in the echoes of that.

Disabled people, or homosexuality (as an orientation) can't be oppressed, because there is no structural or class benefit to the oppressor.

They can suffer from abuse and discrimination, of course.

But there is nothing to gain from oppressing them as a class.

Likewise transwomen can't be oppressed by women. Firstly because women don't have the power, but secondly there is nothing about even the possibility of oppressing tranwomen that benefits women. They don't provide us with any gains.

There has to be material gain for oppression to happen.

The material gain men get from oppressing women, is sexual and emotional labour and controlling their progeny.

And the only shared characteristic that identifies women as the cohort to oppress is their biology.

@datun

Focusing on the misogyny of the trans-ideology is my main concern.

And I would defend your right to do that.

I would point out that the original rad fem, second wavers did a fantastic job of fighting prostitution and pornograhy while never attacking sex workers or women employed in pornography. They were able to focus, absolutely, on the problem at hand, without making anything personal. That focus meant that they couldn't be dismissed as 'phobic' or bigoted and it brought the exploited women on side, rather than making it a 'them and us' situation.

We would both be able to bring up examples of what could only be described at utter idiocy on both sides of this argument but I don't think that helps much. Another thread about LM, to add to the fifty threads already running about LM, does nothing to make this a conversation that I want to join.

Another anonymous Twitter user, spouting crap, is nothing more than that. This argument is so toxic that the tweet could have come from an over entitled trans identified person, a 'rad fem' trying to offer proof that there are over entitled trans identified people or it could have come from straight Dave in Luton who just likes winding people up.

In my experience the last person it's likely to have come from is an actual trans women because she's most likely to be banging her head on a desk because she can't think of enough ways to dissociate herself from the sender. The 'Jaycees' and 'Justanothertranswomen' of this world have spent hours explaining that they have as much truck with that kind of bollox as you and I do.

@RealityHasALiberalBias

I hope that you can accept my genuine compliment that you've expressed that beautifully. It's an argument I'm familiar with but it's rare to see it so clearly and concisely expressed.

I think that the sections of rad fem analysis which focus on female biology do so because of its tight focus on women's oppression. We would agree that there is enough women's oppression to not have time to widen the focus; women are oppressed in hideous numbers and in hideous ways across the globe, while we can focus on it, we can't pretend that it's the only kind of oppressions that takes place.

Racism, homophobia, classism, disability discrimination and even sectarianism in their prevalence give lie to the fact that oppression is biologically based. The patricharcy doesn't oppresses us for being women, it oppresses us for notbeing a certain type of white man.

In practical terms, I know that I can talk to a young, unemployed, working class white man, look him in the eye and tell him that I'm oppressed and expect anything but contempt.

Good lord, what a load of whataboutery. So it's Trump's fault, Davies Davies fault, and rad fems fault.

You might well feel that women haven't supported lesbians, and you probably have a point.

I had no idea how marginalised they were within the LGBT community.

Many things don't enter into one's sphere of experience.

I have learnt more about disability, autism, homosexuality, racism, misogyny, the NHS, how laws are passed, equality law, and the hierarchy of political parties, unions and companies, from this one issue.

But I have learnt.

It's given me a far deeper understanding of all manner of issues.

Focusing on the misogyny of the trans-ideology is my main concern.

I believe that this has an overlap into many other issues.

And the right to retain the language used to tackle sexism and oppression is crucial.

Every day, I see new examples of it.

Minutes ago, I read a thread (screenshotted) which came up on a completely unrelated forum. Where lesbians, now called cis lesbians, are not allowed to gather without the presence of male lesbians, but male lesbians are allowed together without the presence of them.

The woman was reduced to asking well what if we want to talk about things to do with our biology?

Not allowed. Without the presence of men. (Who describe themselves as butch lesbians. Masculine men).

rather than just using us

Are you committing the 'everyone on mumsnet is a heterosexual mum' fallacy?

The US Department of health and human services have removed all mention of lesbians and bisexuals from their website.

I think we could all join hands and agree on the horror that is Trump's Leadership of the US and its hiddious impact on women and minorities.

Can you imagine the reaction you'd get from (most) straight blokes if you told them 'there's a lot of fun you can have with a flaccid penis'? O r that she might use it in ways they don't expect? I don't expect the 'treat it like a big clit' line would go far (although might make it easier for them to find.......)

I'm sure there are those who like that kind of thing but for those of us who don't, I hope that none of us would be shy about telling the owner to 'fuck off'.

How should they be protected? Well, it would be a great fucking start if so called lesbians stopped pretending that none of this is an issue.

Some lesbians are telling you what they think, those lesbians have no responsibility to fit into your political view. We're allowed to think for and speak for ourselves.

You might find a little bit more sympathy for your cause, if you occasional mentioned lesbian women and their unique position in the world in a way that wasn't related to trans women. Then, we might be convinced, that you actually gave a fuck, rather than just using us to bash another minority group.

It would help if you asked us what we wanted, what are concern are, rather than telling us. Repeatedly.

It would also help, if 'rad fem' groups didn't allow themselves to be hosted by well known homophobes like David Davis MP. A man at war with his own party's LGBT section, because he said that plans to legalise gay marriage were 'barking mad' and that no one wants a gay child.

Interesting thread, just place marking to read later.

The US Department of health and human services have removed all mention of lesbians and bisexuals from their website.

The website, named WomensHealth.gov, saw that references to lesbian and bi health were removed over the course of a month

Lesbian erasure.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/03/21/department-of-health-and-human-services-removes-words-lesbian-and-bisexual-from-website/amp/

I'm with you, I just hate the 'I'm fine sharing showers with creepy blokes' crew

This isn't a matter of personal choice where some will prefer this and some others will prefer that.
This is a matter of law that will impact half the human population.

Ok, but why is that specific to lesbians? Surely that's an issue for all women regardless of their sexuality.

I don't care who's fine with sharing, lots of women aren't and they shouldn't have to. Consent, bodily privacy and dignity are human rights. Campaign for third spaces if y'all want to share with penises.

Some of us are concerned about others, particularly young lesbians, who lost certainly need protecting from "lesbians" like this:

Can you elaborate on what the risks are to young lesbians and how they should be protected?

As a lesbian, I don't feel scared of Riley Dennis and I'm not worried that I'll be erased.

My biggest issue is lesbian PDAs in anything other than an LGBT environment as it's more likely than not that we'll get hassle from heterosexual blokes.

Ive shared spaces with transwomen for years and have never had an issue with their being forceful or suggestive. I get it all the time from men.

Can you imagine the reaction you'd get from (most) straight blokes if you told them 'there's a lot of fun you can have with a flaccid penis'? O r that she might use it in ways they don't expect? I don't expect the 'treat it like a big clit' line would go far (although might make it easier for them to find.......)