The self-ID petition is live #2

Or to be involved in making decisions about it.

The fact that some people don't understand this demonstrates their unsuitability to be there.

Exactly.

Shouldn't take away from being able to self-identify though.

You shouldn't be able to self identify. This is just one particularly important reason why not.

I think there's a place for trans women to be excluded from some areas of things such as domestic abuse shelters

And this is the very nub of the problem.
If you say that trans women are women but not for refuges then you are saying that there is a difference between trans women and women.
TRA are saying that there is no difference and trans women should be entitled to everything that women are.

I've said all I've got to say re. domestic abuse shelters. Don't think the aggression was required.

I think it was. How dare you presume to decide what female victims of DV and rape should have to put up with just so you can virtue signal?

Women don't want them. End of.

I've said all I've got to say re. domestic abuse shelters. Don't think the aggression was required.

Besides, whilst I value the points you've brought up, these are separate issues to the one on self-identification. Whilst I can't say I totally agree with the points, I can see how they could be an issue. Shouldn't take away from being able to self-identify though.

Women in shelters cannot take their teenaged sons into a shelter with them when they flee violence because males are so triggering for many of their clients. And yet transwomen (ie adult men) want in? That’s not OK.

it's not just about whther the trans identified males (=trans women) are predatory, or 'real'trans people, or whether or not they have a GRC, or whether the risks have been assessed. For women and children in refuges, ANY male body, especially in the space they have gone to in order to be safe, can be terrifying, enough to cause a panic attack.
The fact that some people don't understand this demonstrates their unsuitability to be there.
Any man who wants to support women who have survived DV can help by raising money, it's desperately needed.

Do you think that a trans identified male who forces his presence on abused and traumatised women against their will has the requisite level of empathy for the job?

If they're rubbish at the job they wouldn't continue to work there and if they're fine at it then there's no issue.

There is the small issue that many vulnerable women don't fucking want males there. Why is this your business?

I think there's a place for trans women to be excluded from some areas of things such as domestic abuse shelters. I don't think many trans women would mind having to be in a different area, if you're in the situation where you're needing to use these facilities I doubt the fact that you can't be in a room next to someone else is too big on your mind.

Except that transactivists are pushing to be able to WORK in women's refuges. Because predatory males either are so narcissistic and lacking in empathy that they want to validate their "womanhood" that way, or they are actively abusing the law to get access to vulnerable women.

I’ve signed - Well done for putting this petition up.

I despair at society shunning debate. It’s really disappointing at gets us nowhere.

Amazing progress on the petition I've been discussing it with a few friends and neighbours and they can't believe what's being proposed.

Looking at the map, I can only see 2 constituencies with 0 signatures- Leicester East and Kingston upon Hull East. Just got to keep spreading the word.

If you're talking about Lily Madigan, it's pretty obvious they're a trans woman. If they're not suitable to be working with vulnerable people, they wouldn't be allowed to. As I said earlier, I doubt people who work at shelters are allowed to be alone with vulnerable people due to risk of assault. If they're rubbish at the job they wouldn't continue to work there and if they're fine at it then there's no issue.

I had a lot of respect for Stella Creasy, but I really think she's lost the plot on this.

I've posted the petition on Gransnet. Some TRA has already turned up shouting transphobe

LM is a male...that's why he is primarily unsuitable for such a role, and a very immature one at that. Generally women who have suffered dv at the hands of a man don't want to have one in their safe places.

I don't know who LM is, but obviously if they're not suitable for the role then they wouldn't get it. Gender doesn't really come into it. I imagine plenty of people who were born as women couldn't really do the job either.

timberlumberjack

Because LM is a self obsessed vacuous idiot, what could he possibly understand about the complexities of dv?? He's completely unqualified to even volunteer for such a difficult job.

Madigan set up a Twitter account calling himself Savile's apprentice. You really think he should have access to refuges. Most of the women in refuges have children.

What's wrong with trans people doing good deeds of volunteering? Risk assessment wise, it's unwise to allow people to be left alone with vulnerable people anyway. A trans woman volunteering at a refuge seems to me to be very honorable, and with common sense dictating they wouldn't be left alone with a vulnerable person, just as you'd expect, plus the vulnerable person could request someone else.

TheGoldenBough

What the hell would LM do in an a woman's shelter?? Bore the women to death with tales of her heroism in the face of a cruel unjust world..........

"Here's a lot of rhetoric about men just turning up to women's events/facilities but no evidence to suggest that it would happen"

"Look away girls, there's nobody there!!"

TheGoldenBough, I'll always defend people's right to debate, but there's a lot of misinformation going around, and a lot of undue fear.

I think there's a place for trans women to be excluded from some areas of things such as domestic abuse shelters. I don't think many trans women would mind having to be in a different area, if you're in the situation where you're needing to use these facilities I doubt the fact that you can't be in a room next to someone else is too big on your mind.
However, toilets/changing rooms/whatever else that is similar, anyone who is trans should and do get the same treatment as anyone else. Predators will exist whether legislation for trans people exists or not. If somebody wishes to cause someone else harm, they'll do so.

Your point about gender fluidity is a tricky one. Not just for the law, but for gender fluid people themselves. Lots of gender fluid people just use the accessible toilets because it causes less fuss. Others use the toilets of whatever gender they're presenting as. Legally, there's currently no provision for these non-binary genders in the UK. There is in other countries though.

Anyway, you don't need a GRC to use the women's toilets if you're a trans woman, and vice versa.