Women's Place meeting, Oxford - 25th April

I've yet to see a meaningful answer to the question "what rights do trans people need that they do not already have?" Access to toilets / the Olympics / women's vaginas are not a right

That deserves repeating in bold.

Interesting that the protesters last night didn't cover their faces (at least from teh photos and video I've seen)

"Trans rights are not a debate"... (This is what they were chanting on the video on Jack Hunter's Twitter feed)

Apart from not really making sense ("Trans rights are not up for debate"? ), I've yet to see a meaningful answer to the question "what rights do trans people need that they do not already have?" Access to toilets / the Olympics / women's vaginas are not a right

The first thing I thought when I saw the photo was that these look like typical oxford students protesting about the next big issue (I've seen A LOT of Oxford protesters in my time)

Me too, when I saw them the other night. Most were regular students who like to protest. A friend who is pretty senior in one of the colleges very nearby walked me to the door, and recognised some of them as usual suspects who demo so loudly that noise complaints are raised by neighbours.

What was nice was that the venue was at the opposite end of the quaker garden, so we couldn't hear any of it, once inside.

Unlike the building I once worked in where I heard "Stop the Oxford animal lab" droan on all day for months.

crome I mean I for one just hope we can manage to restrain ourselves from threatening any babies that might be accompanying attendees I don't quite understand the thought process, do they not realise it makes them look a bit unhinged rather than winning anyone over to their POV...

I think the fact that the 'debate' is taking place on Twitter is a good part of the reason why interactions between younger TRAs and those they oppose have become so toxic. The production of empathy is just blocked if there is no face-to-face. Childless students especially I think are vulnerable to this - we haven't inevitably been exposed to the same wider range of perspectives, we haven't had the same breadth of social interaction as parents, or someone in their 30s+, so this sort of exaggerated solipsism becomes more likely. On Twitter you're not even presented with the opportunity to interact with someone as a person like yourself, but rather just with a name/avatar. You lose sight of the distinction between yourself (the physically embodied mind you're constantly aware of as you type) and other-as-a-self (can't see their body ergo can't see a mind) and so it's so much easier just to interact with them purely within the frame of 'something that reacts to you', that recoils when you prod it or bites when provoked, but otherwise doesn't really exist as someone in their own right. They are alive for you only insofar as they fit into your personal reality & what they are for you is shaped entirely by you. I don't think it's very safe, especially as we see that it then translates into real life.

I guess the blind loyalty may be this thing of - everyone else is X religion so there must be some sense in it, and I should pledge allegiance to it even if in the meantime I'm still figuring out exactly why it makes sense. TRAs know that if they make enough noise, many people listening will assume it's somehow warranted, because why else would you come and stand in the rain to shout at women?

Also I'm more than a bit concerned with the student representatives' seeming love affair with Action for Trans Health/Sisters Uncut - I keep hearing something or other at the uni is supporting it.
The SU leadership are clearly not interested in neutral representation of student interests, they're using Union resources to further their own personal political agenda.

(love that WPUK have tweeted about Delaunay today though, she def deserves more exposure than slightly soggy and overexcited TRAs!)

Other things I've remembered from last night. Listening to a WPUK member talking to a protester: women have a right to penis free changing rooms

Protester: by your argument lesbians shouldn't be in women's changing rooms

WPUK woman (genuine reaction without missing a beat): Women aren't at risk from lesbians! Do you know how homophobic you sound?!

Thanks velourvoyageur I will try to go along and hear their side (rather than screaming outside).

It might be interesting if they recognise me from the WPUK event ...

• @louiseaaa * I'd be interested in linking up if there is a safe way to do it. I'm more of a lurker than a poster though...

I believe so. Women's Place tweeted about it here:
twitter.com/Womans_Place_UK/status/989210420681560065?s=19

Oxford SU LGBTQ Campaign have been removing any comment on their Facebook statement that disagrees with them (except for some reason Miranda Yardley's). It's resulting in it reading really weirdly, as people have referred to other posters who no longer appear.
They really can't see how intolerant this is can they?

@cromeyellow0
'Trans panel: experiences and activism at Oxford', LMH, Friday 04/05, 6-7:30pm
Link: www.facebook.com/events/629570137378286/

stating 'We don't care' when asked to keep it down as there was a sexual assault support group going on was this the case last night? fucking hell.

I can't help thinking that these protests are losing them support among their own supporters.
I could imagine myself as a student going along to protest a 'hate rally' and then seeing ordinary polite women turn up followed by men on my own side threatening a mother and child, and stating 'We don't care' when asked to keep it down as there was a sexual assault support group going on.
I probably wouldn't have said anything st the time - not after seeing threats- but I imagine I would have quietly slipped away and started looking into it in more detail.
I wonder how many of their fellow protesters look at the masks and threats and realise how much nonsense has been fed to them.

velourvoyageur
Am going to a pro-TRA panel discussion in Ox soon

Could you post details of this? I'd be curious to go along.

Ah, I wondered if you might have been able to see if WP would organise one

I'm south of Birmingham which happened before I was aware the meetings were happening - otherwise I would have gone

Louise, are you in a location that hasn't had a Wpuk meeting yet?

I'm a Quaker and I'm going to bring this up in business on Sunday - to see if we can send a meeting - to - meeting solidarity message. Our meeting is aware of this issue/has talked about it already.

I've emailed [email protected] to say thank you for hosting the meeting.

Great minds... me too

Hi, I just joined mumsnet - i emailed Oxford Quakers last night to thank them for hosting WPUK - I saw some TA twitter noise encouraging exactly the opposite and took the address from there. Wasn't sure if it was helpful really as they're probably swamped :-( I feel really sad and cross if they're suffering now. I really hope they're not.

I've emailed [email protected] to say thank you for hosting the meeting.

Anyone who feels they can offer support privately or publicly to Oxford Quakers and the staff at their Meeting House - I think they need it today.

See also "mumsnet want to introduce a trans section 28"...

'They'?

I was sat next to a young man who I suspect may identify as trans and from his body language was critical of the meeting. However, he listened and took notes. The only way it could have been better would be if he'd participated in the Q&A at the end. So I think there are young trans people out there thinking for themselves.

Or he was there to take quotes out of context and spin them as hatespeak.

That's what happened with the HoC meeting where Sheila's description of the parasitism of those lunatics who wear those body suits as part of their sexual fetish, was spun as her saying all transwomen are parasites.

It's what they do. Misrepresent what was actually said at meetings. It's a brilliant tactic. Dishonest but effective.

It's worth noting here for people who are considering going to these meetings in the future, that WPUK and We Need to Talk (Venice Allan) have different approaches.

Broadly they are are of the same mind. But WPUK don't want to repeal the GRA, they want to beef up the exemptions and have stated five questions that they would like answers to, the first one being a debate needs to be had.

We Need To Talk is more radical in its approach and that is reflected sometimes in the content.

I personally agree with both approaches, despite them being different. Either solution would be good.

But for people who have not been to a meeting yet, and are considering taking sceptical children or friends, WPUK provides a more measured approach.

That doesn't mean that they get targeted less by TRAs, although they do reserve a special vitriol towards Venice Allan because, I imagine, she is outspoken and unapologetic.

FlorenceLyons

That is so heartening! Your daughter sounds fabulous. And feminist consciousness raising is so beneficial to girls and young women. I hate it that extremist transactivism is making it harder for them to access. WPUK is doing sterling work in this regard.