Susie Green

I've just watched the TED talk myself. My heart goes out to Jackie that she suffered so much as a result of gender dysphoria and bullying.

But not a single shred of evidence was offered that her problems stemmed from the fact that she was in the wrong body.

What also really struck me was the photos and the video of Jackie. In every single one since her transition she is either posing provocatively and/or is dressed to the nines with full make-up and long flowing locks.

She mentions her excitement that she may be 'attractive'. She likes a particular photo because it makes her look 'hot'. It appears that Jackie associates being a girl with looking pretty, feminine and sexy. It makes me very sad.

I watched the start of Susie Green's talk. She begins with an incident involving her four year old son telling her something, and of her (S Green's) response:
'"Mummy, god's made a mistake and I should have been a girl" .... and I was terrified!'

This suggests to me nothing more than the sheer foolishness and ignorance of this person Susie Green. A four year old? A four year old? She was terrified of what a four year old child said about what he wanted to be? For heaven's sake, woman, get a grip.

One of my grandsons told me the other evening, as he sat in the bath and after splashing his big sister, 'I really want to be a girl.' He's a four year old boy. Was I afraid, terrified even, to hear this, said as it was in all seriousness, face to face, eye to eye? What rubbish. This same four year old boy was a kangaroo a short while ago ... actually a mummy kangaroo is what he really wanted to be. 'Terrified'? Huh? What?

OK, new young parents can't be expected to know everything about what to expect from their children. But there's something to be said for common sense. We can surely expect some gesture in that direction. However, this Susie Green person is clearly as daft as a brush. We need structures in place to guard against the depredations such foolish and ignorant people can inflict on their children - safeguarding, legal standards in place ... yes, and common sense interventions to let them know when they're being ignorant and foolish. Instead, it seems, some people - including, sad to tell, some who should know better - want to canonise such foolishness and ignorance.

As for dressing up: dressing up? You deduce aspects of a child's mature personality from their dressing up proclivities? ...

'Terrified' indeed. A four year old child. The mind boggles.

I think with just oestrogen, you only get to a certain stage in breast development. The maturing stage usually comes with periods. I read somewhere about giving cyclical progesterone, but with inconclusive results.

Or Lupron

I've been Christian for over 20 years but am now in the interesting position of wondering if I even believe in God anymore. (The attitude towards gay people in the church is just one of the many issues I have).

I have had this discussion with a family member, they gave up on God because of the behaviour of people. They didn't pick up the bible and read it themselves. They are rethinking their atheist stance now and are currently agnostic. I don't attend a church, I study and reflect on the teachings of Jesus myself.

I read Jesus as someone who would have welcomed and loved the adults and children that some view as transgender, including gay, Autistic, gender non conforming, abuse survivors and gender dysphoric. Anyone who doesn't follow that example is an imperfect human being, like the rest of us, we all make bad choices in life. Jesus would forgive those bad decisions if inside people were truly sorry, as God can see inside us and loves us as we are.

Jesus wanted people to love themselves and others. God is the TRUTH. That's my belief anyway.

If any one watched that tv series following trans people

With regards to the breasts I remember one going in for an enlargement, and it was very brave and interesting for them to allow us to see on tv. In a bra and under clothes they just looked like regular breasts but the nipples were very much like men's nipples still. It's obviously easier to adapt a women's nipple to look like a man's chest than the other way around.

Obviously im sure the right person wouldn't care and I certainly hope that everyone finds a special person to have in their lives they and are happy and that they are truly happy with their bodies after.

But I do wonder if that in itself is hard that they still don't quite look like they are women's breasts and again makes me wonder if they are being lied to

Or a way for them to remain living with their partner. Gasp Which throws up all sorts of problems within the relationship.

Interested to read the discussion on religious families.

I've been Christian for over 20 years but am now in the interesting position of wondering if I even believe in God anymore. (The attitude towards gay people in the church is just one of the many issues I have).

But I feel I can speak with an insider's view, having spent a lot of my life in Christian circles - different denominations and different parts of the country.

In my view, VERY few Christians in our country would accept transitioning as an alternative to being gay. Both would be considered equally undesirable. Some of those at the extreme end of the Christian spectrum, like Islam in Iran, might see this as a good option, but they are few and far between.

ChristianPOV - I hear ya!

@SuitedandBooted, it's worse than that in Iran. Gay men and women are prosecuted for engaging in homosexual acts. Punishments include imprisonment, lashes and (for repeated offences) execution. However, there is a recognised procedure for changing gender and the state subsidises the costs of SRS, so some gay people have taken that option as a way of enabling them to live with less fear of persecution.

The situation in Iran shows clearly how religious people would rather their child trapped in the wrong body than gay.

Or could that be some individuals and cultures?

Hormone therapy seemed to bring positive changes. She grew breasts, and her body hair thinned. "It made me feel good," she says. "I felt beautiful. I felt more attractive to the kinds of partners I used to have." But then she had the operation - and came away feeling "physically damaged". She had a brief marriage to a man but it broke down, and any hope she had that life would be better as a woman was short-lived. "Before the surgery people who saw me would say, 'He's so girly, he's so feminine,'" Marie says.
"After the operation whenever I wanted to feel like a woman, or behave like a woman, everybody would say, 'She looks like a man, she's manly.' It did not help reduce my problems. On the contrary, it increased my problems...
"I think now if I were in a free society, I wonder if I would have been like I am now and if I would have changed my gender," she says. "I am not sure."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29832690

The situation in Iran shows clearly how religious people would rather their child trapped in the wrong body than gay.

On one level, I have a great deal of sympathy for SG: she was stuck between a rock and a hard place is my feeling (between child and husband). And, as is so often the case, it became her job as the mother/nurturer/female to find a solution.

But I do think cross hormones and surgery should be a last resort, not the default. And I simply cannot see why explorative therapy is considered such a great evil/transphobic.

However I got the impression that the dad was so disapproving the kid felt that he had to choose. Be a girl to play with this or be a boy and have daddy not approve

She now says that their ex son/ new daughter 'has his father wrapped around her little finger'.

See kids! That's how you get your homophobic dad to accept you- just cut off your genitals and accept a shorter life span!

Opps!

Meant to add, good post LostArt

Well if my child said they 'would be better off dead and never born' I wouldn't go to the extreme lengths that would entail in order to facilitate it.

LostArt

"Jaycee's view seems to be that regardless of any warnings of pain, shortening of life expectancy, public criticism, sexual function or anything else, she would have regarded physical transitioning as worth it and indeed the only way to live with her body.

Maybe Susie Green had read similar accounts and assumed her child was the same. "

That's why I think it's dangerous for MIT to come onto a parenting website and state that they were unhappy, suicidal even to go through puberty or not 'live as' the opposite sex. I think most parents, above all else, want their children to be happy and will sometimes go to extreme lengths to make that happen.

I'm not saying MIT shouldn't talk about their childhood, but I think caution should be used. And I think the threat of having a suicidal child should not be used against parents.

I think what can be drawn from all of this is the absolute certainty that a child's (supposed) desire to "be the other sex", doesn't come just from them, and their inner voice. Both family and social pressures and prejudices all have a part to play. I was astonished to see the Iranian Women's Football Team, which has 8? Transwomen in it. Apparently it is more acceptable in their society to become a Transwomen than admit to being gay. I think this view is more widely shared than we might first suppose.

This is a really fascinating read, and demonstrates how a change of mindset can be a better solution than reaching for the hormones and scalpel.

www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201803/different-stripe

Whenever my DS wanted to play hoovers, I just gave him the real one

Yeah on the toy thing sorry me and my DH would not buy cleaning product type of toys like pink vacuum cleaners and irons.

I grew up making model planes Luke f 16/ which I bought with my own money I didn't think it made me more or less of a girl though.

I was a tomboy when young. I probably still am. I played with action man and toy guns. I wasn’t in the least bit interested in dolls or princess stuff.

When my sons were young they had dolls, toy kitchens, dolls houses and pink stuff. Didn’t do them any harm.

I hate all this gender stuff that’s going on now. I grew up during the 80s when pop stars wore makeup, could be effeminate etc. Women had short hair and power dressed. I really thought things were changing, particularly when gay people felt they could come out and it all became mainstream. I don’t think people felt as socially constrained, yet here we are, back to putting people in boxes and then closing the lids.

I just came away from the ted talk wondering if susie green really wanted the best for her child.

I didn't like the photos she showed of her child in skimpy attire.

I wondered about the Dad. Did he have to come around so that he could have a meaning relationship with his child?

For example someone me and my DH know bought their girl all toys that were domestic products, ironing boards irons, toy vacuumed cleaners etc.

We actually had a discussion how we just would have those types of toys. I actually grew up with traditionally boys toys.

We could t believe our friend was so into their daughter having these types of toys.

We don't know really what the story of the father is in relation to his child and ex-partner.

I've been reading a lot of posts on here from Jaycee (trans, MtF, decades ago) over the past few days to try to understand the issue from all perspectives, and the agony of going through the 'wrong' puberty comes over very strongly.

Jaycee's view seems to be that regardless of any warnings of pain, shortening of life expectancy, public criticism, sexual function or anything else, she would have regarded physical transitioning as worth it and indeed the only way to live with her body.

Maybe Susie Green had read similar accounts and assumed her child was the same.

I am so, so dubious though. We had one of those dramatically glittery boys, unhappy enough to talk of suicide, frequently calling himself a girl's name, writing stories in which he was the girl protagonist. Our GP was concerned enough to refer him to a counsellor, who quickly dismissed the idea that he had a gender identity problem and suggested we sort out the school bullying problem he had instead. I hope that's still what happens in the majority of such cases, but in a climate of affirmation and when every child over 5 has now heard that 'boys can be girls inside' I suspect there's much more chance of incorrect diagnosis and of children unnecessarily believing themselves to be trans.

May I also note an observation about Michael Caahman?

I would like to do two things. Firstly apologise to MC and others that were treated badly by others in the name of Christianity. Those people should have shown you love, they like all of us are imperfect and have free will.

The second thing is a relative of mine, a Christian, protected a gay colleague in the 1980s from a homophobic colleague trying to get him sacked.

My personal belief is that MC is projecting and still hurting from bad behaviour he endured in the past, most of the people that hurt him are pensioners or dead now.

It’s incomprehensible that anyone can think it’s okay to remove someone’s sexual and reproductive functioning. They’re such basic functions for all mammals.