House of Commons event - anyone else going?

Langcleg you made me laugh with "I'm not a nice girl"! My DH recently complained that it is hard to argue with me because I'm assertive. Yes, I'm not arsy or aggresive or sulky, I'm assertive, definitely not nice in a female!

We Need to Talk

What's WNTT?

I think there is room for different groups with the same broad aims, it follows the same pattern of the suffragists and the suffragettes. We need both because different people respond to differently presented messages.

What must be at the core of what is spoken about is truth. This is the biggest thing we have on our side. TRA ideology is largely based in fantasy and the distorting of truth. I think most reasonable people understand the value of truthfulness in society.

As Lang says, wntt and wpuk has quite nicely put themselves into a 'slot' each.

Brilliant feedback from all here. I like the idea of the two 'camps' with a common cause, yes.

LangCleg I think being 'nice' is one of my failings in a way. We need blunt speakers!

I think there is room for two groups, not working in opposition to each other. One for the blunt speakers and those who are already deep into the issues, and another for consciousness raising and alliance building. These two groups, WNTT and WPUK seem to fulfil each niche nicely.

I'm one for blunt talking. I'm not a nice girl and never have been. But I would take a nervous, dipping-toes-in acquaintance to a WPUK event rather than a WNTT one.

But, frankly, I don't give a shiny shit if A N Other thinks I'm not tactful enough. And sometimes, being tactful works the opposite way - you can't raise anybody's consciousness very far if you're too nice to actually tell them the plain and unvarnished truth.

Can't one of the trans women at the event do an open letter rebuttal to the Pink News story stating what was really said and post it on Twitter? (With PN copied in?) I think it would carry more weight coming from someone PN says they are trying to protect.

I think the speakers were right about EVERYTHING!!! But when we are talking about convincing the general public, I wonder if it would be better to focus on the issues that do not seem to divide us - the transing of kids, and freedom of speech things, to begin with

Yup

qumquat
I agree I think the transing of children is the issue to raise to get 'lay' people on board. And we have to get lay people on board.
I agree. The transing of children is the issue that got me really angry about the trans agenda. It was a while before I even realised that there was a problem with it for women as well. I think many men just see our arguments about women as 'why do women need special treatment/protection - they're adults', but they might be on board for an issue which is about protecting children.

I also agree with macaroon that being seen as too radical at this stage could lose support. Eg saying transwomen are men, using male pronouns etc might just be taken out of context as phobic (as demonstrated by Pink News, though they would only ever have reported it in this way)

I think it’s ok to be uncomfortable, and I agree Sheila Jeffreys was the most challenging speaker. These are uncomfortable things we’re talking about, and as women we are deeply socialised to appease and support men, not challenge or disagree with them.

I completely agree macaroonmama. I found myself worrying that if there were people in the room only tentatively reaching peak trans it would have scared them off. I agreed with the speakers but still felt uncomfortable at times in Sheila Jeffrey's speech. I found Anne's speech to be the most 'beginner friendly' and I agree I think the transing of children is the issue to raise to get 'lay' people on board. And we have to get lay people on board.

I guess the consultation (if/when it happens) will be like this? I did fill out the Scottish one but only did the answers bit!

Also, it needs to. E out there for everyone, yes like letterboxes rather than shared on fb etc?

the message was so radical that I think for outsiders, it may have come across as being unforgiving to those with gender dysphoria. And I also think it made the us v them thing v clear, which made me sad.

I get where you’re coming from. How mad is it though, that saying gender is a social construct and sex is immutable, is considered radical and unforgiving? Links to pornography and fetishisation of women’s bodies need to be made and talked about. Discussion of dysphoria was incredibly sympathetic, I thought. Anne Ruzylo said something along the lines of, no child should ever be made to feel that their body is wrong and they need fixing, and it received a heartfelt round of applause. No one is denying that dysphoria exists or that every man claiming a transgender identity is an autogynephile - although many are. However medical and surgical intervention should not need to be the answer to a psychosocial problem.

There wasn't even anything like that for Brexit, was there?! Two big proposals and just not enough info out there.

I wonder if FPFW or any of the groups have plans for this? I may contact. Thanks SpringNow

I was thinking more if there's ever been a government consultation with paperwork attached simply stating how the law will change.

I wouldn't want anything with arguments for or against, but just "these are the things being considered under GRA", with a list of possibilities.

It would be as factual as the list you get when they consult on changing a bus route, for example, e.g. this route could be shortened, diverted via xyz, or combined with this other route. (Can you tell we've had a bus consult recently? )

As in a great truthful one! Not a TRA one!

SpringNow that is really interesting, yes you are quite right. Something to think about. I have to say I don't trust the TRAs to put anything truthful out there in return though. Nic Williams' leaflet about how to apply the Equality Act is a great one.

@MacaroonMama

"But. I am glad it was a meeting for those of us in the know already"

was there any talk of an information campaign? I think that's half the problem - that people don't know. It is a bizarre conversation when you hear it the first time.

The government really need to get on with a public information programme - things like petitions are of limited use when so many people just don't know what's happening.

I'm trying to think of a comparable case where we might have had public information about something but can't come up with one. I suppose for all households to get a leaflet saying what the new ideas under GRA are and how they would apply in schools, workplaces, public areas...? But I literally can't think of one example where anyone has done this.

I went last night too, and it was wonderful. The speakers were so intelligent, so informed, so brilliant and so passionate. The atmosphere was great, and the talks were brilliantly balanced between history and sociology, the political and the personal.

But. I am glad it was a meeting for those of us in the know already. Because the message was so radical that I think for outsiders, it may have come across as being unforgiving to those with gender dysphoria. And I also think it made the us v them thing v clear, which made me sad.

I think the speakers were right about EVERYTHING!!! But when we are talking about convincing the general public, I wonder if it would be better to focus on the issues that do not seem to divide us - the transing of kids, and freedom of speech things, to begin with.

I KNOW this is a copout! I know! But does anyone else feel that maybe the 'when they go low, we go high' approach may be a more productive one? I am open to being told to woman up! I don't want to take anything away from a night of such courageous discourse.

And hi to the two lovely Mumsnetters I met - one who rescued me when I stop by myself, and GoodySomebody who chatted about breastfeeding with me!

Datun "The security said they had never received so many complaints, emails, phone calls etc. "

after yesterday's Tweet from the TRA, I wonder how many were from the same person doing it 20 times in a different voice, from a different email account etc.

It really, really was. Felt like an island of truth in an ocean of lies.

Bloody brilliant.

Sounds like it was a brilliant evening.

The Pink News article was pathetic, trying desperately to find offence when none was given.

I particularly liked the picture of the parasite - thank you Pink News for showing me what a parasite is. The word has other meanings too you know.

Also the distinction between David Davies who was not to be confused with the Brexit secretary David Davis - risible!

Can David Davies push the petition more in his constituency via his twitter feed?

Love this. Hope it does become a mainstay of women debating this issue. Thank you all for the updates.