Is choosing to be a SAHM a feminist decision?

Bluntness if you read my earlier posts you will see that my motivation for being a SAHP was not to further my DH's career. Also that my DH has had to take advantage of family friendly working practices. Many women are in similar situations to myself.

It really isnt relevent to the care industry.
Its like saying you are suitable to work as a chef because you can cook a meal.
Also just because you WOH doesnt mean you are any less of a caring person which is the implication.

Bluntness have you read any of my more recent posts? I'm OP btw, just name changed.

Also, of course I'm entitled to half the money if not more because my future earning potential has been diminished. I deserve this not because I have facilitated anyone's career but because as a married couple we decided that we wanted someone to stay at home during the working week for a while for the benefit of the kids. I took this role, he took the WOH role. Both important, both valuable to the family. If we were to split he would benefit from the hours I put in as a SAHM parenting the kids how we both wanted to and I will get my share of the financial assets.

Bluntness

So how does devaluing the SAHP role and stigmatising the women who take this role on encouraging men to take on the SAHP role instead?

How does alienating SAHM from radical feminism progress radical feminism?

How do families which pay into exploitative care and service industries, within in a patriarchal capitalist society, progress radical feminism?

DIone yes and no. Of course employers dictate what is necessary but I think a lot of this extra stuff is about getting ahead and working towards that next promotion. That's the problem with women facilitating men in general with this kind of stuff. It just allows the gap to widen further as the man is promoted whilst the woman is burdened with all the domestic duties. I chose to be a SAHM to benefit me and my kids, not to facilitate my husband's career. On the plus side, when I go back to work at least our setup will be sustainable and my husband's employers will see very little difference.

Dione, there are plenty of women on this thread and others like it who state categorically their husbands progression is down to them taking care of the kids and home and they enabled it. Hence why they are entitled to half the money.

I don't think as a rad fem you can recognise on one hand that society doesn't value stay at home mums, but on the other fully accept you're supporting and facilitating a mans career by not working.

Sure. do what you value, what your family values, but women who proactively give up work and support their husband to progress his career past being a parent, are not just Enabling the patriarchy to continue they actively progressing it.

Because these men keep working after children, doing all the hours they chose, travelling as they wish, just as they did before they became fathers, with you at home enabling it, you thus give that father an unfair advantage over nearly every single working mother he meets, becayse in nearly every instance she doesn't have that support and you know it.

Please don't insult us by telling us that's radical feminism. It's not. is it liberal, sure you may have your own equality by whatever yard stick you find acceptable. But let's not pretend you're some rad fem supporting the sister hood in society end the patriarchy . You're not. You're actively fucking working mothers over. Because you're that woman at home making sure your man has an active advantage over nearly every working mother he comes into contact with. He sets the work pace. He can do it because of you and she needs to step up and match it. That's the reality. These men can do it because a woman is making sure he can. She's back there making damned sure he's got that advantage.

Rad fem? No. Not even slightly, and let's not pretend otherwise.

Dione, I know. I don't particularly assign a label to myself. However, I think my points regarding dismantling/supporting the patriarchy are relevant in terms of radical feminism.

As a SAHM I actually would not facilitate study, overtime or travel other than what was absolutely necessary

I have no doubt that any parent would disagree with this. The question is what deems "What is absolutely necessary?" And in most cases it is the employer.

liltingleaf, you sound more like a liberal feminist, or even just a feminist. Not all feminists are RFs and that's ok.

Quite You do realise SAHMs aren't some homogeneous group of women that all do and think the same things? I am not proud of facilitating my DH working long hours because I don't and won't. My DH also doesn't want to work longer hours as he likes seeing his kids and being an active member of the family.

I think the point about women WOH propping up the patriarchy is more that if you think women who want to stay at home should go out to work in order to be feminists then you have to ask yourself who ultimately benefits from this ethos? Is it women? As I mentioned previously, I think a lot of this comes down to where you believe a woman's desire to be a SAHM comes from. If you think it's all socialisation and that women have been hoodwinked into the role by the patriarchy then yes , freeing yourself from the SAH role could be a good thing. However if you believe that some women have a natural desire to be with the children, especially in the early years, and this is not driven by society at all but is more innate then that obviously changes things completely.

@liltingleaf my comments on SAHP re entering the workforce were absolutely not intended to be patronising and I’m sorry that you read them that way.
In my industry(Tech/Finance) speaking in interview about SAHP skills - no matter how good they might be -just wouldn’t cut it so I am speaking from my own experience. I’ve spent a lot of time and effort in my career advocating for women, in particular working mothers and maternity leavers/returners, so I do have some skin in this game. Experience gained as a SAHP is only going to be really relevant if the job applied for is related in some way (care industry). Just like years of experience as a teacher would carry a lot of weight when applying for a role in education but less so in say, marketing. You’d expect the teacher to do some training.
Yes there are core competencies such as negotiation skills or time management which are common across SAHP and other roles but I genuinely think you won’t be taken seriously in interview if you rely on this material. As I referenced earlier, lots of companies are launching returnships which are perfectly tailored for SAHPs returning to work. There are numerous online training courses (lots in Tech) many of which are free. Taking the time on these will carry a lot more weight than expecting a non-care industry to assign value to experience gained in care (SAHP). Feel free to disregard this but this is the reality as I see it and I interview a fair few people.

I am certainly no expert on RF. Indeed I'm sure the very notion is giving FWR regulars a right laugh. OP, I'm surprised you find what I have written to be patronising, it is simply RF analysis of SAH Mothering.

My last comment is just this - from a rad fem perspective feminism is about society not individual circumstances so anything we can do to make society as a whole fairer for women should be a good thing.

But society is just a collective of individuals. Ignoring their lived experiences and perceptions on them will do nothing to further the feminist cause.

So which is it ?

Can be either or both. Point being it is not necessarily the choices you make that make you a feminist but the ideology that informs them.

liltingleaf but you are saying that SAHM is going against the current patriarchal capitalist system and i disagree - SAHM are facilitating a long hours (Male) worker, and perpetuating gender stereotypes. You as a family will pay more in taxes.

Yes, I am, for the reasons I mentioned upthread. Equally I have mentioned, upthread, how not all women who work in paid employment are serving radical feminism.

Personally, my DH takes advantage of family friendly working practices, through necessity, due to having to support me through a recent cancer diagnosis. And we might pay more tax, proportionately, than a family where both parents work but not actually, as my DH does not earn enough! Also I think I probably recouped a truly frightening amount from the cancer care I have received from the NHS. My career prospects don't look great though..l

This thread has been super interesting and I'm glad it's not descended into a bun fight but I'm gonna step away now as I think we are just going round in circles at this point.

My last comment is just this - from a rad fem perspective feminism is about society not individual circumstances so anything we can do to make society as a whole fairer for women should be a good thing. I'm not going to get drawn into arguments about how someone's specific SAH reasons / circumstances are super feminist

Peace ✌🏼

@liltingleaf that's a really specific situation where what you were doing was relevant to your work. Not so for most

Totally agree with TheGrumpy
SAHM are proud that they facilitate their DH to work long hours in "big"roles paying X amount of tax but if a woman WOH its propping up the patriarchy
So which is it ?

" As a SAHM I actually would not facilitate study, overtime or travel other than what was absolutely necessary as quite frankly I don't want to add to the hours that I solo parent. "

@Bumpitybumper that's great, and it works for your set up, but often what happens is that the earning partner's career takes off and so for the good of the family it "makes sense" for him to travel more, put in the hours etc.. I can see many people starting out with intentions like yours and heading down the "slippery slope" of facilitation

Sorry, but wohp could simply argue that doing everything a sahp does PLUS working means they are even more skilled!

You're ignoring the fact that many (most) women, currently, do not make the choice to be a SAHP for an extended period of time, within a vacuum. Most often their specific circumstances mean than working in paid employment becomes impossible.

My own circumstances were that my D.C. had a Statement of Special Educational Needs and I had to advocate for them which involved many meetings, a whole lot of research and whilst coping with a lengthy period of my DC's illegal exclusion as well as caring for a D.C. with additional needs. There are many women who find themselves in similar situations. I was best placed to do this, rather than my DH, because of my specific background in education.

OP here. Finally learnt how to name change

DIonne
'The impact of SAHMs goes beyond the financial impact on the individual woman. It impacts the children growing up associating women with caring roles and wifework and men with earning and free time. Thereby passing on patriarchal notions to theiron sons and daughters.'

I find this a bit patronising to be honest. No my kids will not grow up with these stereotypes as my husband does plenty of caring and wife work in the hours when he's not at work. As I see it, I am primary carer only for the hours he's at work and any childcare required in the evenings or weekends is split as are most household chores. They see him cleaning the loos, changing the beds, doing the night get ups etc and see he doesn't get anymore free time than I do. As they get older we will explain to them why we adopted these roles, the value we think they add and how they will be free to make their own choices as they get older. To be honest I imagine by the time that we will be having these conversations in any great depth I will be back at work anyway and that will be another discussion about how you can be many things over a lifetime and they all don't have to fit into societies idea of what's best.

There is also the impact on women in the workplace. While employers have a pool of "facilitated" men to draw from (in terms of availability to study, travel and put in overtime), women and non facilitated men who place more value on parenting and pulling their weight wrt the family will continue to be 2nd choice for employment and promotion.

I agree with your point but would argue this isn't a SAH issue but wider one about women facilitating men's careers. A lot of working mother's pick up the slack for their partners too and you just don't see men facilitating women in the same way. As a SAHM I actually would not facilitate study, overtime or travel other than what was absolutely necessary as quite frankly I don't want to add to the hours that I solo parent. We both chose to have kids and knew the responsibilities associated with this, the fact he works doesn't absolve him of these responsibilities. Like I said earlier, I view my role as a SAHM like any other job role with core hours. It does not mean I become a slave to his career or am the domestic skivvy.

"I also think that for most people outside Mumsnet's white, middle class, SE England demographic, paid work is not a fulfilling, life affirming experience which of course means many women don't want to "let" their DPs have a share of the parental leave."

@SweetheartNeckline very true and very good point.

"As for what can be done? I would love to see legislation introducing compulsory paternity leave at the same rate as SMP. I would love to see more men SAH. The more men who do this, the fewer will be "lauded" as it will be the norm. I have no doubt that they would participate in competitive parenting at the same rate as mothers.

And it would be one in the eye of patriarchal capitalism as employers would be taking chances on all employees of child having age, making women a better bet. As well as showing that there are more important things than money.

It would benefit children in having real parental input from both parents and seeing that raising children and keeping a home is not something that is a parent/adult responsibility, not a woman's. And making a world where our girls can actually be whatever they want to be without having the odds stacked against them before they start."

@DioneTheDiabolist totally agree with this

"Neither would making it more 'uncool' to be a SAHM. Feminists should be supporting women not adding to their oppression."

You aren't actually hearing what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to demonise the role. I'm saying men should also do it if it's necessary for that role to exist (in the absence of a PT working family friendly utopia economy!)