Trans debate. What doe people want?

No, I don't think (4): too small a group even for it to be about eugenics.

(3) seems the most likely, though (1) could also be the case - if you replaced 'Bored billionaire blokes' with 'The Russian state'.

If you request female only you should be able to trust that you get female only.

Gender identity should be irrelevant. It shouldn't matter how well you "pass" just in case to the sensitive eye, you don't.

(Especially as the majority really don't).

Monstrous yes all pretty viable,

here's a fourth one I read somewhere but dismissed it as tin foil hat material:

1. Population control? With people being rendered infertile by drugs/ puberty blockers. I'm wondering if it's as tinfoilhat as I thought...

Mind you I don't hear about a lot of TRAs making waves in sub Saharan Africa or China. I heard something about compulsory transing for gays in Iran but not sure it's legit info.

@patodp - don't tell me to fuck off. I was making a valid point. You can't choose one sentence as if it represents my whole post, which was a reply to something else.

Yes, obviously in the case you have chosen they knew, but I'm not sure that's always the case, though it wasn't the point I was making.

But, on that point, you can't possibly know if no TIMs pass as female, can you. It's like saying you can always spot when someone is wearing a wig. You can't.
I worked with a trans woman a couple of years ago and I had no idea until someone told me.

My point was, if you are entitled under the system the op is describing to request a woman, that means that a) it must be done at point of booking and b) everyone involved in the booking needs to know who is 'trans gender'. If you forget to request it, and are not asked, at what point do you find out if the person dealing with you is a woman, or a man in a dress?

The Samaritans also talk about how coroners record verdicts and are often influenced in how they record a death by social pressure. They will often record as accidental rather than suicide because of cultural taboos or sensitivity to family. Leading to under reporting.

I said on another thread that this might also lead to another issue: where there is pressure to record a death as suicide or an expectation that a death will be suicide within a particular community. Leading to reporting having a much lower level of under reporting than the population as a whole.

The report states that its already felt that the level of suicide in females is probably more susceptible to under reporting than the level of suicide for males because they attempt suicide in different ways.

@terfsRus

As to the endgame, yeah I wonder too. Three possibilities?

1. Bored billionaire blokes ( like Soros ) who would like to destabilize society for shits and giggles (or as they put it to promote globalization), as it will never affect them.

1. Tons of money to be had from investing in Big Pharma due to the drugging of transitioners.

1. MRAs wanting to see women 'back in their place', and men taking over all positions of power/authority again.

Red thanks will look through - so it seems that people like P Lees and S Faye are just spreading misinfo unchallenged.

I heard a lot about suicide stats but are they correct?

www.samaritans.org/about-us/our-research/facts-and-figures-about-suicide
This report by the Samaritans talks about the problems of suicide stats in general. Its pretty detailed and goes into detail about how they are by nature difficult to compile.

Notably they say:
^Be careful of small groups/populations
The size of populations should be considered when looking at suicide rates. Smaller populations often produce rates that are less reliable as the rates per 100,000 are based on small numbers. Therefore, differences in the number of suicides may have a bigger impact on the rate than in a larger population. An example of this might be suicide in older people (eg over 80 years), as the population size is lower than in younger age groups^

And

They state:
Reliability is affected by the multiple definitions of suicide. Silverman suggested that a decade ago, there were more than 27 definitions of suicide used in the research literature. Today, the problem of defining and classifying suicide and suicidal behaviours in research is still a problem which hinders our understanding of the subject

In other words you have to know methodology and be particularly aware of what you are looking at, and whether the data you are looking at, is actually comparable at all.

It really does highlight how easy it is to manipulate and misrepresent suicide rates.

Some men view this as an opportunity to put women back in their place as dependent on men.
Others view it as an opportunity to transition away the gay and lesbians.
Still others view it as legal validation of their delusion that they are non men or non women or non binary.

"There is the additional issue of the Samaritans expressly saying that talking about it is counter-productive. It leads to contagion. "

TRA seem to be immune from any social responsibility. They also seem to be able to say anything and not be held to account.

Essentially, how do you know if someone is not a born woman?
ODFOD

this woman knew

We all know.
The vanishing minority of transwomen who "pass" so as not to be recognised as male are the red herring of the whole debate.

I've heard about contagion. That is the only explanation as to how this has spread like wildfire (unless it's always been there and I TOTALLY missed it?). The fact that so many TIMs (and not TIFs) are STEM/ computer/ gaming experts also makes me wonder if that hasn't been a factor as well.

Monstrous I have read that article, but I still wonder what the endgame is. There are kids being indoctrinated in this and I can't think why. And the hounding of women like it's Witchfinder General 2.0 -
I fear we can't stop this legislation from passing, but it's crucial to fight for it to be fair to women and to transgender people as well.

The principle of Self ID is that of any other faith based belief system.
The requirement in law that everyone practice the rituals of this one belief system is the point where their fist hits our nose.

The original claim that 41% of trans-people have attempted suicide was misleading. Deliberately.

They asserted it was from a cohort of 2000, when in actual fact it was from a cohort of 27.

Statistically insignificant.

And if 2000 children a year are showing up at gender clinics, that would translate the death of three a week. When the Tavistock have said there's only been one suicide in 10 years.

However, from what I can gather, self harm and suicide ideation is prevalent amongst the trans-community, as it is amongst other marginalised groups. All LGB, the disabled, and people with comorbid issues, etc.

The recent study by Stonewall said that of the respondents who claimed suicide attempts half were disabled.

But as they didn't provide, or refused to provide, any further information, no real conclusion can be drawn. Despite what would look like an urgent need to do so.

There is no doubt that marginalised groups are suffering, and it needs to be investigated. But claiming it only happens to trans people is wrong.

There is the additional issue of the Samaritans expressly saying that talking about it is counter-productive. It leads to contagion.

So using it as leverage is unethical.

But that does not stop trans pressure groups talking about it at every opportunity.

@terfsRus Unless there is so much cash behind this ideology they will socially engineer people into acceptance.

My fear also.

thefederalist.com/2018/02/20/rich-white-men-institutionalizing-transgender-ideology/

I heard a lot about suicide stats but are they correct?

Who knows, and how odd that we can separate out stats for trans 'women' (TIM) suicides but not for trans 'women' sex offenders, eh? They have to be women, but when it's suicide suddenly the 'trans' bit is important to them!?

The best solution is a third space. TRAs' main argument is they need safety from violence, although I suspect they won't consider a third space because it would invalidate their delusion of being women.
I heard a lot about suicide stats but are they correct? And what are they actually due to? Threat of violence, lack of acceptance?
I fear nothing good will come out of this obssession with being accepted as women. Unless there is so much cash behind this ideology they will socially engineer people into acceptance.

I want to understand (1)why it is that a tiny minority of trans people seem to be able to bully so many into accepting the delusion that you can change sex.

I also want to understand (2)why so many of the majority are worried about being called TERFs or bigots if they state scientific facts.

I suspect (1) actually follows from (2).

Me, I don't care what I'm called. Sticks and stones etc.....

Among other things, I’d like to not have to read this utter shit as the very first search result when I Google ‘terf’

TERF is an acronym for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. Sometimes, "exclusionary" is expanded as "eliminationist" or "exterminationist" instead to more accurately convey the degree to which TERFs advocate for harm towards trans people, specifically trans people who were coercively assigned male at birth.

@PinkbicyclesinBerlin

same as of a male HCP attended to you and you wanted to change to a female HCP. Women are entitled to request a born woman.

So, do they have to tell you upfront (breach of people's privacy) or are you allowed to ask and then they tell you (same, only more intrusive in some ways)?

Essentially, how do you know if someone is not a born woman?

In short, I want a complete decoupling of gender and sex.

Id like people's sex to be valued and it understood how and why it matters and it can't be something you pretend doesn't exist or can be changed.

Thats all really.

I want gatekeeping. Proper gate-keeping