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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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lucydogz · 08/03/2018 20:50

an interesting article in the Guardian from today (or perhaps on the twitter feed for tomorrow's edition) on this saying, as far as I can tell, that we should all pull together as women with other disadvantaged groups.
[[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/08/vaginas-far-right-progressives-identity-politics?CMP=soc_3156
The far right hates vaginas. Why doesn’t this anger the left more? ]]

AngryAttackKittens · 08/03/2018 20:03

It's sad that we have to rely on the Telegraph to report fairly on what's happening in the Labour party. It's a good article, my main concern is that it won't reach Labour voters since they won't read it (experience with my own family suggests that anything in the "wrong" paper will be dismissed out of hand as nonsense, and I suspect that the same dynamic is at play on the right too, not that the Guardian is likely to write anything worth reading on this issue any time soon).

LizzieSiddal · 08/03/2018 19:10

Me too Somer. It sums up the whole issue.

Somersetter · 08/03/2018 18:59

I just joined this thread to post a link to the Telegraph article but see someone has beaten me to it.

I could not agree more with this bit:

women are being told that someone who has lived most of her life as a man, with all the associated privilege such an existence bestows, who still has ownership and use of the male genitalia with which she was born, is as much a woman as someone who was born female, who has lived as a female and who has suffered for being a female.

And they are not being asked their views. They are being told that this is right and that if they disagree, they are wrong. The arrogance is astonishing and it is unacceptable.

DarthArts · 08/03/2018 18:32

Telegraph Article:

Tom Harris
8 MARCH 2018 • 1:06 PM
An International Women’s Day confession: I didn’t support All-Women Shortlists (AWSs) when Labour first introduced them under the leadership of John Smith. I believed them to be undemocratic and unfair. And then I had a conversation with the wonderful Lorna Fitzsimons, the then Labour MP for Rochdale.

We were sitting in the Commons tea room while, just along the corridor, in the main chamber, the legislation making AWSs legal was being debated. There would be no vote, because by then any opposition in principle had been rebranded as misogyny. Parliamentary careers have been lost for much less. So the many colleagues who I knew shared my reservations did what I did: said nothing and waited for the whips to tell us when we could go home.

But Lorna that night just about changed my mind, or at least gave me new perspectives on the issue. She didn’t berate me for my views, she simply asked me to explain them. Then she offered her own arguments, the most powerful of which – and this was one I had not previously considered – was that where a “favoured son” in a local party was known to be excluded from standing as a candidate, then talented, able women who otherwise might not have considered standing would throw their hats in the ring. It was less about excluding men than broadening the potential talent pool.

And so it has proved, despite my reservations. So many female Labour MPs have put their male colleagues to shame with their contributions to public life since an AWS illuminated their paths to the green benches of the Commons.

So if I wasn’t a full convert, I could at least appreciate anew the opposing argument’s strengths.

It’s tempting to conclude that Labour is embarking on a new national conversation, this time about whether or not trans women – particularly those who remain male in all biological senses but who self-identify as women – should be allowed to stand as a candidate in seats reserved exclusively for women. But such a debate is not taking place. At all.

Women who oppose all-women shortlists walk on Bournemouth sea front at the Lib Dem party conference, 2001
Women who oppose all-women shortlists walk on Bournemouth sea front at the Lib Dem party conference, 2001 CREDIT: BRIAN SMITH
The rules have certainly changed, but the battle was won without a single shot being fired. Those who oppose this change have been told to shut up.

They have been abused, sometimes physically. They have been called names. Some have even been suspended from the Labour Party for expressing a view that is surely shared by much of the populace, namely that someone who still possesses every physical attribute of a man cannot, in any real sense, be described as a woman, however strongly she may feel that to be the case.

Having secured, after much difficulty and conflict, a historically high level of representation in the Commons, cisgender women are being told that someone who has lived most of her life as a man, with all the associated privilege such an existence bestows, who still has ownership and use of the male genitalia with which she was born, is as much a woman as someone who was born female, who has lived as a female and who has suffered for being a female.

And they are not being asked their views. They are being told that this is right and that if they disagree, they are wrong. The arrogance is astonishing and it is unacceptable.

The silence from many woman who will be affected by this rule change might lead us to believe that it has the whole-hearted support of Labour women. Maybe it does. It certainly has the support of columnist and Corbyn enthusiast Owen Jones, who tweeted gleefully yesterday that “anti-trans activists” had “overplayed their hands so much, they made Labour more pro-trans rights”. Oh, how the tears and anguish of those silly feminists with their years of campaigning for women’s rights must have delighted Owen in his triumph!

Labour cannot even accept that allowing trans women to stand on all-women shortlists is a controversial step. It may turn out to be the right one, just as the introduction of AWSs in the first place were controversial but, in the end, the right policy. But the party won’t even allow doubt to be expressed. If you oppose it, you’re wrong, you’re a bigot, you’re transphobic and you don’t belong in the Labour Party.

Yet of ourse it’s controversial – how could it possibly be anything else? And many, many women, both inside and outside the Labour Party are angry because they see a hard-won concession being compromised and devalued.

If I still opposed AWSs, I might support allowing trans women making use of them – all the better to undermine the very principle that underpins them and – who knows? – it might even lead to legal action that forces the party to abandon them altogether.

But that would be a shame: AWSs have done good and they will do more good before they are no longer needed. Trans women, if they wish to, should stand for parliament, just like everyone else, no one is preventing that. But they don’t need to use all-women shortlists to do so.

VaguelyAware · 08/03/2018 17:20

Can anyone summarise the Telegraph article? As I can't access it.

Ritzsaltedcrackers · 08/03/2018 16:44

The SNP is very pro self ID and will shortly introduce self ID IN Scotland.

DNAnotGRA · 08/03/2018 15:42

Born to a Northern working class mining family, it would seem a natural conclusion to vote Labour, however as the old adage suggests - if you are not a socialist at 20 you do not have a heart, if you are not a conservative at 40 you do not have a brain. I have voted conservative for the last 18 years since turning 40 and have a very well developed brain even though it has been damaged through a couple of strokes. I do not regret my decision to support our government even though there are several policies I personally disagree with but then again no party can ever fulfil everyones dreams for the perfect fit when it comes to political representation. Having moved from a Labour stronghold in South Yorkshire where my local MP was totally in favour of the "transwomen are women" mantra - that is until I explained biology to him to now residing in North Yorkshire Tory stronghold I can say that my new MP has much more about him than any Labour MP I have personally dealt with and thankfully doesn't buy into the BS.

DarthArts · 08/03/2018 15:41

Anyone know what the SNP's position is on Self ID?

LangCleg · 08/03/2018 15:39

I don't think that thinking is Dawn's strong point

Neither do I. And what the Labour leadership all round don't seem to realise that even onlookers who don't give a shit about trans one way or the other can see this level of utter incompetence. If Dawn can't get to grips with a minor brief - I mean it's not the Treasury or the Foreign Office or the Home Office for heavens sakes - without it all looking like the Keystone Cops, voters NOTICE.

MeltingSnowAfterHeavyFall · 08/03/2018 14:51

They fed a story to HF and OJ, sat back and watched the reaction.

LizzieSiddal · 08/03/2018 14:46

Someone said upthread that this wasn’t going to be announced for weeks as it had to go in front of some committee or other.

Huffington Post were being a bit premature I think.

OvaHere · 08/03/2018 14:11

I think perhaps even they realised in a rare moment of insight that it might harm their cause.

Alternatively they are just enjoying dangling it as a threat whilst illegally enacting it anyway.

I'm not a legal or political bod but perhaps if it is officially made policy it draws more attention from the media and the opposition and makes them more subject to wider scrutiny.

As things stand now they are achieving their aim of attacking uppity women in their own party without most of the country being aware.

rememberthetime · 08/03/2018 14:03

is it a good sign they have delayed the announcement? It seems that someone at least is having a second thought...

It was deliberately goady to release this on Womens day, so I expect someone has decided not to make things even worse.

or possibly they just don't want to attract attention right now.

lucydogz · 08/03/2018 13:59

I don't think that thinking is Dawn's strong point, her job is to sit next to Corbyn in the Commons and nod vigorously when he talks

ShotsFired · 08/03/2018 13:45

@lucydogz I think Labour have decided against announcing it, and the focus is Dawn Butler announcing penalising firms with a gender pay gap (announced this morning).

And how is dear Dawn ever going to know whether the GPG has ever changed when we won't know who is a woman or not if she has her way?

lucydogz · 08/03/2018 13:16

I think Labour have decided against announcing it, and the focus is Dawn Butler announcing penalising firms with a gender pay gap (announced this morning).

Childrenofthestones · 08/03/2018 13:09

I don't know how true it is but I read a while back that there is a delay on the time from when somebody applies to cancel their membership to when the numbers come out .
It may be 3 or 6 months I'm not sure.
But I may be wrong it has been known. 🙂

YourVagesty · 08/03/2018 12:17

Sorry if this is a bit of a daft question but does anybody know whether we can find out the numbers of women cancelling their memberships today? I'd be interested to know if there's a mechanism for finding out.

woman11017 · 08/03/2018 06:47

MrsR I'm not an expert on the GRA and Labour party's behaviour , but if you are on twitter Anne Ruzlo has a brilliant list, of all the rights and laws we lose if GRA goes through in its current form.

Others on these threads will be able to advise better.

My take is that the toxic storm of the loss of the ECHR and inevitable repeal of Equalities Act with the Repel Bill and brexit are going to decimate Women's ( And BME and Disabilities) rights.

If women are no longer a biological category in law, and the labour party is getting rid of women only short lists, we won't be represented, and we have even less chance of mitigating the crap.

The freedoms and rights that women who have lived on these islands from 1960s till now have had, will be lost.

mrsreynolds · 07/03/2018 17:19

Oh and thanks for the #mayday4women info...I've emailed them

mrsreynolds · 07/03/2018 17:17

I've made an appt with my (tory) MP at his next surgery in April
Any points you'd like me to make?

TulipsInAJug · 07/03/2018 17:09

Good - hope the Mail and other news outlets report on #labourlosingwomen

woman11017 · 07/03/2018 17:04

Levice Flowers
‏
@mayday4women
We've just spoken to The Mail about the mass resignation. Media are definitely interested. Labour can't just dismiss women forever.