Labour has failed women.

I hesitate slightly in doing this, but I urge anyone concerned about Labour generally to read the current Westminstenders thread from page 5 to page 13.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3193506-Westminstenders-From-Russia-with-Love?pg=5&order=

Yes its supposed to be a thread about the EU but many of the threads over the last day or so are about the structural problems of British politics and what Jeremy Corbyn exposes. Its crucial to the understanding of how democracy works and whats also going on with Russia.

It is important to the politics of women.

I stress its not anti socialist. Nor is it pro-May (for whom is also owed the same sort of criticism). Its about the need to see the real danger - which isn't Brexit either.

Brexit merely exposes it.

I'm sure some leavers will also agree in parts.

thecatfromjapan posts are particularly good.

Oh his last official tweet was this from 20th October:

Jared O'Mara Office @ jomarampoffice
Today is @breastcancernow #wearitpink day! Let’s all wear pink, raise money and make lifesaving research happen

Irony Klaxon

Paul Brand @ PaulBrandITV
Sitting in the Commons while they discuss bullying/harassment is suspended Labour MP Jared O'Mara. Not seen in parliament since he was suspended.

Remember he got suspended for not being very nice about women. Yet he's still in the party and turned up today, as everyone has forgotten about him.

And he turned up for this debate in particular...

Of course they won't kick him out.

I won't vote for any party that is in favour of rights for transsexuals.

Whats wrong with transsexuals having rights? Of course they should have rights. just transwomen should not have womens rights, as they are not women. So basically, womens rights are for female people, with female biology.

I know a post op transwoman is still a man, nothing can change that, but personally I would have no issue sharing female spaces with someone like this. But this is on a courtesy level tbh, there should be no laws to force women to be fine with men in their spaces.

And yes, men should not have womens rights because as datun said they are

are designed partly because they need specific rights due to their biology, and partly because women need specific rights to maintain their privacy/safety.

Leng I can see that . Voids are dangerous and threaten stability but to me theres always been a nihilism at the heart of neoliberalism , Blair would be all self-id and identity politics. I don''t understand your arguement or its background I;m afraid.

dogendsaredogs - it doesn't really matter if you were a supporter of the centre position (I certainly wasn't) or not. If there is a void at the centre, the Overton window goes bonkers and extremism creeps in. Voids are dangerous and threaten stability, as we can see in Western-style democracies throughout the world. We have no viable centre because the neoliberal economic model used for the last forty or so years collapsed with the financial crisis in 2008. A new one has yet to emerge and it would probably be a good thing for all of us if it hurried up and showed itself.

I'm not down with this nostalgia for the soggy centre.
Isn't that Blair who;
Started a war that fostered terrorism?
Made gambling and payday loans the scourge of the working class?
Hostaged public services to PPIs?
Just sayin.

Transwomen should have exactly the same rights as everyone else.

Just not women's rights.

Which are designed partly because they need specific rights due to their biology, and partly because women need specific rights to maintain their privacy/safety.

A man who has had the whole surgery and hormone course to get rid of his penis and grow breasts is still a man.

A man, or a transwomen. It doesn't matter when it comes to rights, you'll struggle to find anyone on here who says such a person as a transwomen shouldn't have rights.

But I question the notion that transexuals aren't part of TRA.

India Willoughby is certainly a TRA.

Aristaeus76, yes he may still be a man but I don't feel that's any of my business. Please have a read through the threads, you'll find that the problem is self id and #nodebate, certainly not transsexuals.

I've not seen any posts on here that state that previous labour voters are going to vote conservative.

But I question the notion that transexuals aren't part of TRA.

But it's more than just self identification. A man who has had the whole surgery and hormone course to get rid of his penis and grow breasts is still a man.

lucy I had hoped that they might just mention it in passing to sort of prepare the way/leave the door open (and other such metaphors) for a proper discussion. It seemed like the perfect opportunity to introduce the issue and I was really angry that they didn't. I can see why they're wary of discussing it properly and openly - we all know the difficulties and risks involved - but to wilfully ignore it seems totally cowardly and actively disingenuous.

aristaeus76 I'm another poster who is very much in favour of supporting transsexuals, but actively against introducing gender self-identification. An important distinction to be made.

Anyway, it's the Tory party who have proposed the GRA, so voting for them with regard to this issue would be pointless.

Aristaeus76 transsexuals are very different from the TRAs. Mumsnetters tend to be very supportive of transsexuals, as many just want to live their lives quietly and commit to being trans, by have all medical intervention, such as the full genital reassignment. We have some wonderful transsexuals who are very supportive of women’s rights and don’t want those eroded/abused by the aggressive TRAs. They freely admit that they are not women but living their lives as the closest they can be.

We are concerned about the push for self identification, which will mean women lose the rights to men free areas. It also means that we have no right to ask men to leave female only areas as they can ‘claim’ to be self identifying women.

Please read more of the Feminist pages as there are many issues.

Women on here have no issues with TIMs getting rights, but we don’t want those rights to be at the expense of women’s safety and achievements.

No, I will never vote Tory. It's an impossibility.

Spoiling the paper is pointless, no-one sees it really. Better to vote for some indy, or stand yourself. Maybe we need a crowd funder to pay the deposit for a load of indy non GRA candidates.

interesting first post, aristaeus76!

i think if you read a bit you'll find most people on the feminist chat board are pro rights for transsexuals. its just they also care about upholding women's rights. nuanced, i know.

Heartbroken to be unable to vote for Labour because of this issue. Would never vote Tory. Will have to spoil my ballot, I suppose.

I won't vote for any party that is in favour of rights for transsexuals. Glad to see so many posters considering voting Tory. Time to teach the lefties a lesson.

What a sorry state of affairs this is.

I have written to my local labour rep advising them why I have cancelled my membership and why I will no longer give them my vote in any future election, I would advise others to do the same. Even if you don't pay a membership fee, let them know that they have lost your vote.

May not make a difference but you never know, and it will be interesting to find out the extent of the Labour Party who support this nonsense.

Sad thing is I have absolutely no idea who I will vote for now.

I was listening to the same programme hometerf and thinking exactly the same thing. But I guess they only had an allotted few minutes, which meant that the discussion couldn't be opened up. Very frustrating though.

God I love Mumsnet - there is so much thought-provoking debate, recent posts ^ a case in point. Thank you for continuing to debate and challenge.

The bitter truth is the left needs the right and the right needs the left.

Yes. This is an essential tension in a healthy democracy.

I think our problem at the moment is that the centre has collapsed (it's not just us; it's all over Europe and the US too) and so instead of that essential tension, we have a deeply unhealthy and potentially dangerous kind of symbiosis.

The bitter truth is the left needs the right and the right needs the left.

If you demonise either too much you end up with problems.