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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?
  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.
  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.
  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

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HaruNoSakura · 08/03/2018 10:54

@Elletorro

Found one section and one set of explanatory notes that I missed out yesterday:

s14. sets out the legislation around combined discrimination: dual characteristics

and the explanatory notes for the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment - Explanatory Notes -> Commentary on Sections -> Part 2 -> Chapter 1 -> Section 7

DodoPatrol · 08/03/2018 10:54

The Girl Guides clearly need a reboot so that they can stick to their original aim of benefiting girls.

I think we need to establish an Organization for the Defence of Female Only Divisions.

GirlScout72 · 08/03/2018 10:43

Here's a copy of my post from yesterday 7th march at 18.09:

"Girlguiding complies with the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 which makes clear that organisations providing single-sex services such as Girlguiding should treat people according to their acquired gender. As such, and in line with our values of inclusion, we welcome any young person who self-identifies as a girl or young woman."
www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/equality-and-diversity-policy/

Here they are calling the protected characteristic of sex, 'gender'!!!!
"Girlguiding's approach to inclusion
Girlguiding is open to all girls and young women between the ages of 5-25 (4 in Ulster). Girlguiding provides resources and support for adult volunteers to enable them to include all girls and young women and give them a great guiding experience.

Further information about how Girlguiding supports the inclusion of individuals with legally protected characteristics can be found in the following supporting information.

Gender.
Age.
Disability.
Transgender and gender reassignment.
Marriage and civil partnership.
Race and ethnicity.
Religion or belief.
Lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) members. "
www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/

Plus ""In addition to providing a ‘girl only’ space for our young members, we are committed to ensuring our young members have female role models in leadership within Girlguiding. In order to support this, roles such as Unit Leader, can only be undertaken by female members.

Whilst some roles are restricted to only being held by women, adult males (18+) are welcome to join the charity in a variety of other volunteer roles.

Further information can be found in our Membership and Recruitment policy."

"Girlguiding is a single-sex organisation in accordance with the provisions of the Equality Act 2010. Girlguiding believes that the needs of girls and young women are best met through an organisation catering specifically for girls and led by women.
Our policies
Girlguiding’s policies and related statements provide a structure in which guiding can take place safely, consistently and in accordance with legislation.

Policies must be followed by Girlguiding’s members and by recognised volunteers involved in delivering or supporting guiding. These policy statements are supported by further information and resources to ensure that our members put the policies into practice."
www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/membership-and-recruitment-policy/

They seem on the one hand to be saying they are invoking exemptions to keep it girl only, but on the other that any one who identifies as a girl is a girl or 'female' (they conflate that word a lot). Their safeguarding and membership also talks about informed consent (how does that gel with parents not being being told?) and also not doing or being discriminatory in order to discourage anyone from joining (inc religion) so that also contradicts 'you are free to go elsewhere if you don't like it'.

GirlScout72 · 08/03/2018 10:36

Agreed.

But GGA are saying TWO things, they say the ARE invoking the single sex exemption to keep GGA 'girl and woman only'

BUT they are also saying that they are NOT invoking it as they are required by law (they're not) to treat someone as their 'acquired gender'

They can't have it both ways, that's a contradiction.

By invoking the sex exemption they can lawfully exclude legal males (trans girls and a TiM without a GRC) PLUS they can also exclude legal females (TIMs WITH a GRC). Kids are too young to have a GRC so their legal sex is their birth sex.

So they in some places on their website that they are a single gender organisation (and even say that 'gender' is a protected characteristic, it's not, sex is) and in others that they are 'single sex'

They also conflate the meaning of the word female. The biological definition of which is "Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes."

The LAW defines a woman as a 'female of any age'.

In short, they are in a contradictory mess, as they've listened to a tin pot trans organisation.

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides
SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 10:34

These diacussions are really difficult to have because the people that have written these policies really believe that self identification changes your sex

SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 10:32

I think that 'single gender organisation' vs 'single sex organisation' is a separate conversation to sex segregated accomodation/facilities and same sex chaperones

The first point is a conversation about the ethos and purpose of GG...and the definition of gender and stereotypes

The second point is a safeguarding issue

SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 10:29

We are tying oyrselves in knots but its actually simple. Gender reassignment IS a protected chatacteristic. So the EA protects a TIM from being excluded from a group for being trans-gender. So if they wanted to join a mixed group or a male only group, they could invoke ttthe EA2010 if they were prevented on account of being transgender

HOWEVER we seek to exclude them from GGs because of their sex, not because they are transgender. Sex is the relevant protected characteristic here and the EA2010 allows the protection of female only spaces and the exclusion of males. I am sure that would be upheld in court

The problem is that GGs are saying that it is a SINGLE GENDER organisation and using self-identification as the criteria

AgnesBadenPowell · 08/03/2018 10:01

Good idea-I will press them on that point and let you know. It won't be fast though - any question takes at least a week for an answer!

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Elletorro · 08/03/2018 09:58

Hi Agnes

It does look like that’s the expectation but that’s not necessarily discrimination because it doesn’t explicitly say they have to leave.

Maybe ask for some clarity on that to flush it out?

AgnesBadenPowell · 08/03/2018 09:55

Hi @Elletorro

This is the bit of the policy that concerned me: "flexibility and the Leaders’ discretion in conversation with the parents must be used to determine how long the child stays within the unit”.

To me, that says GG are expecting a transboy to leave the unit, it's just a matter of when that happens.

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GirlScout72 · 08/03/2018 09:37

Sorry for typos! Tweets ABOVE

And *this BIT

Fair Play for Women provide some really good guidance on single sex exemptions in EA2010 (which is what the other tweeter is quoting): fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/

GirlScout72 · 08/03/2018 09:35

I posted further up thread, GGA confuse sex and gender on their site, so in some places they list the protected characteristics and include 'sex' and in other places they don't say sex they say 'gender' and 'gender reassignment'.

Re the tweets about, GGA are quoting equality and human rights commission which offers an interpretation of EA2010. She's quoting this big but leaving the bit at the end off (which is odd as elsewhere on their site they say they are invoking the exemption for sex, to keep GGA female only)
"A service provider provides single-sex services. If you are accessing a service provided for men-only or women-only, the organisation providing it should treat you according to your acquired gender. In very restricted circumstances it is lawful for an organisation to provide a different service or to refuse the service to someone who is undergoing or has undergone gender reassignment." [ie the sex exemption, which GGA say they are using, but they are not]

equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

Ereshkigal · 08/03/2018 09:32

Someone should challenge them on Twitter about this.

Ereshkigal · 08/03/2018 09:31

Sex is a protected characteristic whether the Girl Guides like it or not. They say they are adhering to the EA but if they fail to recognise all protected characteristics then they are not doing so.

Elletorro · 08/03/2018 09:26

That should say

Sex is “not” included

Elletorro · 08/03/2018 09:25

Hi Agnes

Just checked the transgender policy. It seems there is an assumption that girls who are transgender will want to leave.

It doesn’t explicitly say they have to leave. Is there some additional policy somewhere on this? As far as I can see there’s nothing to show they would be asked to leave.

It’s very odd that sex is included on their list of protected characteristics.

Still haven’t worked through the Equality act to double check if there’s direct discrimination against boys.

Been mulling over whether there’s an indirect sex discrimination issue with GG failing to consider how it’s policies disproportionately negatively affect girls

NothingTraLaLa · 08/03/2018 09:19

What if all the (bio) girls request alternative accommodation and facilities away from the trans girl? The alternative accommodation would then become the main accommodation. Would that be deemed to be transphobic? Or are they only allowed to do that if they don't want to share with anyone?

StickStickStickStick · 08/03/2018 09:09

So girls that have joined girls movement have to share accommodation with boys and it's their fault if they don't like it...

AgnesBadenPowell · 08/03/2018 08:17

Someone asked GGUK about this on Twitter. See response here: mobile.twitter.com/mintyylamb/status/970753226042724354?s=21

"As an organisation dedicated to supporting girls and young women we have robust processes and procedures which are updated on an ongoing basis to ensure all girls and young women who are part of guiding are supported to have a fun, safe and positive time.

The well being of all our young members is always at the heart of everything we do and will continue to be. If a young person doesn’t feel comfortable sharing accommodation,
for whatever reason, we encourage them to talk to their leader about alternative accommodation and facilities."

As one poster on Twitter said, what if a girl doesn't feel able to ask for alternative accommodation, because she's shy, been socialised not to ask for things or be difficult, or because she's frightened of being labelled a transphobe?

What if a girl feels comfortable sharing with a biological boy but her parents don't?

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ijustwannadance · 07/03/2018 23:15

The youth are being fed lies that they can solve all of their mental health problems by pretending they can become someone else and completely ignore any possible underlying issues that will now magically disappear.

Those who are genuinely dysphoric will simply get lost in the crowd and not be given the help they need.

AgnesBadenPowell · 07/03/2018 23:12

@PlectrumElectrum I've just found it on twitter. More cutting and pasting from GGUK. I liked the posters comment about how GGHQ doesn't seem to care about the comfort of the other children in its units.

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AntiGrinch · 07/03/2018 22:49

This is really sad. And mind-boggling.

What is really tragic about it is that - as another poster eloquently said:

"Firstly because there is something special about the guides being only for girls and free from the usual pressures around bodies, make up, constant social media and never ending pink onslaught of their childhoods."

I really honestly believe that a huge proportion of "trans" young people just wouldn't be "trans" in another culture. It is something that is driven by trends, by tumblr, by a certain kind of glamorous peer pressure, by certain strands of youth culture and media; and it's a dysphoric response as much to that pernicious, unhealthy culture as it to oneself or one's own body. This is a commercialised insanity that is to do with money being made out of longing and dissatisfaction packaged in a very groovy and ad-friendly way - not to mention the actual sales of physical stuff that go along with it. This is neoliberal commercialism preying on our children when they are at their most emotional and malleable and vulnerable; when they need to define themselves as against their parents, this shiny twinkly dangerous glamorous poison is what they are being offered.

Guides is (used to be) about the opposite of that: no selling, no bullshit, no glamour, no posing, finding your real strength, using your body and your mind in honest fellowship with other girls. Where can young people who NEED a break from this bullshit go now?

I have a troubled niece who has dabbled in nonsense about trans (the trans nonsense seems to be going away although her underlying anxiety remains) and her mental health improves in direct proportion to how long she spends outdoors away from this echo chamber of internet guff. I cannot understand why all this is being pandered to.

PlectrumElectrum · 07/03/2018 22:31

Anyone seen this?

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides
Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides
OldCrone · 07/03/2018 21:58

How would this work in legal terms? Girls who ID as boys should not be excluded, since to do so would be to discriminate against them on grounds of gender identity or gender reassignment or whatever the term is. Boys who ID as girls can be excluded on grounds of sex, using the Equality Act exemption. They are not being discriminated against due to their gender identity, since all boys are excluded on grounds of sex, by invoking the Equality Act exemption.

Elletorro · 07/03/2018 21:43

On a different note

Please do help them find their inner difficult woman!

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