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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?
  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.
  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.
  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

OP posts:
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OldCrone · 08/03/2018 14:38

@HaruNoSakura

From what you say, it looks as though the Girl Guides are applying the law as it stands. In that case, the law needs updating, as Ereshkigal says, since the world is a very different place now from when that law was drafted. A girl who is struggling with her identity needs support, not ejection from a safe female-only space.

mamaryllis · 08/03/2018 14:30

Dodo Grin
But yes. I’m up for ODFOD.

HaruNoSakura · 08/03/2018 14:22

@OldCrone

Looking at the wording EHCR uses (emphasis mine):

Circumstances when being treated differently due to gender reassignment is lawful

A difference in treatment may be lawful if:

• A service provider provides single-sex services. If you are accessing a service provided for men-only or women-only, the organisation providing it should treat you according to your acquired gender. In very restricted circumstances it is lawful for an organisation to provide a different service or to refuse the service to someone who is undergoing or has undergone gender reassignment.

And the explanatory notes for Schedule 3 -> Part 7 -> ¶ 28 states that an exemption can only be used when it can be objectively justified, and uses the following as an example for when it would be legal to apply an exemption:

• A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

That's a pretty high bar. Basically the example is weighing the risk of increased harm that could be caused to a number of female victims of sexual assault if those women feel unable to access the counselling service compared to the risk of increased harm that could be caused to a number of transgender women victims of sexual assault if they are barred from accessing that service at the same time as the women. Although the risk of increased harm is the same for each individual involved, consideration would be given to the fact that just through demographics alone it is likely that more women would be seeking the use of the service than transgender women and therefore more women are at risk of facing increased harm if they feel unable to access the service compared to the number of transgender women. It also takes into account that the service offering the counselling sessions should, according the law and where possible, then offer a group counselling session that transgender women can access, thereby ameliorating the effects of the lawful discrimination they've experienced.

Going by that the Guides wouldn't be able apply the exemption as they couldn't meet the threshold of the test of when it would become objectively reasonable, and therefore legal, to make the exemption, based on the example given in the statute.

SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 14:11

Trans people cant even explain what 'live life as a woman means'...they dont have a definition for 'woman' even

Ereshkigal · 08/03/2018 14:11

for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

I think in 2010 they were definitely assuming that "physiological attributes of sex" would be the main ones. Not just a man putting a dress on occasionally without any intention to "change sex". It's poorly drafted legislation and it needs updating.

OldCrone · 08/03/2018 14:09

what does 'live life as a woman' mean?

I think this is the elephant in the room. In 2018, how is living as a woman different from living as a man? Apart from the obvious one that men don't usually wear dresses or makeup (but neither do many women), what is the difference in how we live?

SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 14:06

We are trying to make sense of 2 pieces of legislation which contradict themselves and each other. The problem isnt that WE dont understand. The problem is that the people who wrote them, dont understand. They conflate sex and gender throughout, for a start

SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 14:04

And haru, there are no attributes of sex, other than Anatomical and Physiological

SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 14:01

But what does 'live life as a woman mean' haru?; 'woman' is defined as 'a female of any age in the EA2010

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides
Ereshkigal · 08/03/2018 13:44

In short, they are in a contradictory mess, as they've listened to a tin pot trans organisation.

Who aren't exactly known for their consistency, logic, or proximity to the truth.

OldCrone · 08/03/2018 13:43

@HaruNoSakura

Thanks for your detailed reply. It does seem that the EA2010 is set up in such a way as to favour men who identify as women over actual women. From your interpretation (and you clearly have a much better understanding of this than I do), it seems to me that from the moment a woman or girl decides she has a trans identity, she loses all the protections based on her sex.

In your view, would it be possible for the guides to apply an exemption to the EA2010, and by doing so, favour the protected characteristic of Sex over Gender Reassignment and keep girl guides for biological females only? I have no idea how exemptions come into being, though, so maybe this is not possible.

DodoPatrol · 08/03/2018 13:36

Wink *WomanHuman.

No, I'm not Dido. I'm a former Girl Guide, though, hence (in part) the name I use on here.

HaruNoSakura · 08/03/2018 12:58

@OldCrone

So this post is going to be different from most of my others. This is solely how I'm trying to interpret the legislation, the explanatory notes, and the issued guidance from EHCR, and trying to get it all too match up, and then applying that reasoning to what's happening re:single sex service provision.

Going from the EHCR guidance re:single sex organisations and access for the purposes of Gender Reassignment it looks like it's the other way around. Notably the explanatory notes for s7. use the following language:

• A person who was born physically male decides to spend the rest of his life living as a woman. He declares his intention to his manager at work, who makes appropriate arrangements, and she then starts life at work and home as a woman...

• A person who was born physically female decides to spend the rest of her life as a man. He starts and continues to live as a man...

Coupling that with the wording in s7.ss1 itself:

• A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment . . . for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

and I'm beginning to see why EHCR wording is the way that it is around the inclusion of somebody with the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment.

So the logic behind EHCR reasoning seems to be:

• At the moment somebody gains the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment they are to be considered the sex of the acquired gender for the purposes of the interpretation of EA2010, except where exception has been made, or where exemption may be applied
.
• Therefore, for the purposes of the use of facilities and accessing single sex spaces and services, the person with the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment is to be treated as having protected characteristic of Sex in their acquired gender, not their gender at birth, except where exception has been made in law, or where an EA2010 exemption has been lawfully applied
.
• Therefore denying somebody access to single sex spaces or services on the basis of their acquired gender amounts to a breach of the provisions of EA2010, except where exception is made in law, or where an EA2010 exemption has been lawfully applied.

Except, that chain seems incomplete to me. It feels like there should be case law somewhere informing or reinforcing EHCR guidelines, but I can't find it. I've just spent the morning looking through relevant ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) cases, and not finding anything, and nothing's jumping out from Supreme Court decisions either. I'm wondering if I'm looking in the wrong direction, and there might have been a Tribunal or County Court case decision that hasn't been reported on well enough for me to find using a cursory search.

But anyway, in regards to the Guides it looks like:

• A girl can join the Guides because they are determined to be a woman for the purposes of having the protected characteristic of Sex and therefore are legally eligible to join.

• A boy cannot join the Guides because they are determined to be a man for the purposes of having the protected characteristic of Sex, and therefore have no legal recourse to join.

• A child who has the acquired gender of a girl can join because they have the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment and therefore should be considered as having the the protected characteristic of a woman for the purposes of the interpretation of EA2010 in this regard.

• A child who has the acquired gender of a boy cannot join because they have the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment and therefore should be considered having the protected characteristic of a man for the purposes of the interpretation of EA2010 in this regard.

• A girl who joins the Guides and then obtains the acquired gender of a boy via the mechanism laid out in s7.ss1.EA2010 is no longer considered to have the protected characteristic of a woman and instead has the protected characteristic of a man for the purposes of the interpretation of EA2010 in this regard, but it is reasonable within the interpretation of the law to allow that child to remain in the Guides for an adjustment period until that child is ready to leave (one argument could be that the child is exploring of the option of acquiring the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment, but has not made the commitment to obtaining that protected characteristic until such time as they leave the Guides, another could be that the Guides are exercising discretion of the strict interpretation of EA2010 in the best interest of the child and this therefore can be considered to be acting in the public interest in a limited way).

womanhuman · 08/03/2018 12:40

dodo, I get it! Grin

(Side note, you’re not Dido are you?)

GirlScout72 · 08/03/2018 11:49

And who could forget the WEP

'We're the party for women's equality, particularly if that woman is a man'

GirlScout72 · 08/03/2018 11:49

Ooh Sema, that sounds interesting, I've been thinking this for a while. yes do, post the link here, I'd defo be interested in hearing more about that.

As far as I can see we've got
Tories - Self ID is a really great idea
Greens and their 'non men'
Labour - Lily Madigan, AWD and frankly terrifying misogyny
SNP - totally gaga for self ID
LibDems - drunk the KoolAid

100 years of the vote and no bugger to vote for.

SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 11:45

I think we need to establish an Organization for the Defence of Female Only Divisions

dodo now you mention it, there are a few of us who have been tossing this idea around. I will start a new thread as a kind of 'expression of interest'....see if its a goer and get some ideas about what the priorities should be...I post a link in a minute

GirlScout72 · 08/03/2018 11:26

Sorry Sema, 10.36 08 is from TODAY, it's from the Equality Act explanatory notes, hidden away, I can find the exact reference if you want

GirlScout72 · 08/03/2018 11:19

Sorry Sema, I realise I misread my own timestamp. Which post are you referring to? I can't find a post I made at 10:36:08?

OldCrone · 08/03/2018 11:19

GirlScout72
In short, they are in a contradictory mess, as they've listened to a tin pot trans organisation.
This. They cut corners and listened to a pressure group instead of getting proper legal advice on how to set up their equality and diversity policy.

HaruNoSakura
The explanatory notes for combined discrimination show (I think) that the law could be used so that girls who identify as boys are treated the same as other girls (so that they are not discriminated against on the grounds of gender reassignment), while excluding all boys on the grounds of sex, using the exemption. But I am not a lawyer.

Link here to explanatory notes
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/2/2

GirlScout72 · 08/03/2018 11:11

Sema

It's a complete mess. They have literally cut and paste bits of gendered intelligence briefing into their website.

They can of course choose not to invoke exemptions, but what they ARE saying is contradictory.

Fairplay for women have done some really good write ups on the law, both EA2010 and GRA 2004

fairplayforwomen.com/legal-rights-transgender-people-biological-women/

GirlScout72 · 08/03/2018 11:06

It's from the Equality act explanatory notes.

SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 11:05

girlscout in your post at 10:36:08 yesterday; where is that screen shot from?

SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 10:58

oh jesus GIRLSCOUT...its actually a total mess isnt it???

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