Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

@PencilsInSpace

whoops, posted instead of previewing. Will continue in the next post.

@PencilsInSpace

As I said in my post, that was solely my interpretation of the legislation in an attempt to get it too match up with the Statutory Code, and how it matches up with other guidance issued by EHRC. I also pointed out the argument I put forward doesn't hold up logically "Except, that chain seems incomplete to me. It feels like there should be case law..."

I've noticed that you've missed 13.58:

"The intention is to ensure that the transsexual person is treated in a way that best meets their needs. Service providers need to be aware that transsexual people may need access to services relating to their birth sex which are otherwise provided only to people of that sex. For example, a transsexual man may need access to breast screening or gynaecological services. In order to protect the privacy of all users, it is recommended that the service provider should discuss with any transsexual service users the best way to enable them to have access to the service.

Example: A clothes shop has separate changing areas for male and female customers to try on garments in cubicles. The shop concludes that it would not be appropriate or necessary to exclude a transsexual woman from the female changing room as privacy and decency of all users can be assured by the provision of separate cubicles."

and 13.60:

"As stated at the beginning of this chapter, any exception to the prohibition of discrimination must be applied as restrictively as possible and the denial of a service to a transsexual person should only occur in exceptional circumstances. A service provider can have a policy on provision of the service to transsexual users but should apply this policy on a case-by-case basis in order to determine whether the exclusion of a transsexual person is proportionate in the individual circumstances. Service providers will need to balance the need of the transsexual person for the service and the detriment to them if they are denied access, against the needs of other service users and any detriment that may affect them if the transsexual person has access to the service. To do this will often require discussion with service users (maintaining confidentiality for the transsexual service user). Care should be taken in each case to avoid a decision based on ignorance or prejudice. Also, the provider will need to show that a less discriminatory way to achieve the objective was not available."

Note the first line in 13.58, "The intention is to ensure that the transsexual person is treated in a way that best meets their needs". So first thing to note is the use of: ". .. is treated in a way that best meets their needs". Solely the needs of the transsexual person. Then there's the fact that the sentence starts with "The intention is to ensure. . .". As I've said elsewhere, courts will always take into account the intent of a statute when making a determination of what is and isn't illegal under the Equality Act 2010, and are required to take note of Statutory Codes. Here the intent is clearly stated, and courts will take note of that when interpreting the legislation. Now note the next part. Here the Statutory Code is saying that not only are service providers required to treat a transsexual person in a best way that meets their needs in their acquired gender, but are also required to treat them in the best way that meets their needs in their birth sex. Then there's the example. Notice how it lays out how and when an organisation should conclude that it isn't appropriate to exclude a transgender woman from a female changing room, and now extend how those underlying principles and calculations must be applied to all situations regarding the provisioning of single-sex services.

Yes Haru. Sex and gender reassignment are two separate protected characteristics.

This is noteworthy because the transactivists are pushing the belief that as soon as a person proposes to undergo a process ... (and thus has the PC of gender reassignment) they also acquire the PC of sex, as shared with their preferred sex.

This is something you seem to be arguing as well in this post:

• A child who has the acquired gender of a girl can join because they have the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment and therefore should be considered as having the the protected characteristic of a woman for the purposes of the interpretation of EA2010 in this regard.

• A child who has the acquired gender of a boy cannot join because they have the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment and therefore should be considered having the protected characteristic of a man for the purposes of the interpretation of EA2010 in this regard.

This is not the case.

page 197:

13.57 If a service provider provides single- or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate.

13.59 Service providers should be aware that where a transsexual person is visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from a non-transsexual person of that gender, they should normally be treated according to their acquired gender, unless there are strong reasons to the contrary.

So trans people should be treated according to the gender role in which they present. They should normally be treated according to their acquired gender where they are visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from a non-transsexual person of that gender. And even here, if there are 'strong reasons' an exception can be used if it is a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim.

This is very different from saying they should be considered as having the same protected characteristic of sex as their preferred sex.

Para 2.26 on page 32 makes clear that those who 'must be treated according to their acquired gender' are those with a GRC.

@PencilsInSpace

That's to delineate the separate protected characteristics, as each characteristic can have it's own exceptions and exemptions within the Act.

So as an example:

• A perceived bi-sexual transgender woman (Person A) is working for a large company. The company is found to have been paying women less for doing an equivalent job to men. Person A would have been discriminated against under the protected characteristic of Sex, but not discriminated against under the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment or Sexual Orientation.

• Person A then goes to a bar after work where they are the victim of homophobic harassment. This is witnessed by the bar staff, and Person A asks for help. Both the staff and management refuse to help, allowing the people who are doing the harassing to remain in the bar. Person A has been discriminated against because of the protected characteristic of Sexual Orientation, but not the protected characteristic of Sex. They can only show that they've been discriminated against under the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment if they can show that the harassment or subsequent discrimination is also transphobic or motivated by transphobia (if this can't be proved on balance then it would only be discrimination under the protected characteristic of Sexual Orientation).

• Person A then wishes to use the Women's Facilities (Toilets) at the bar, but is prohibited from doing so by the staff as she is transgender. Person A insists on using the toilets and is barred from the establishment This is illegal, and discrimination under the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment, but not discrimination under the protected characteristics of Sex or Sexual Orientation.

page 185:

13.11 For the protected characteristic of sex, it is not a breach of the Act as it applies to public functions and associations to do anything that is required under another law.

Anything GG do in relation to single sex provision that is required by child protection / safeguarding legislation is lawful and not a breach of the EA.

page 177

12.46 The Act permits associations of any size or character, other than political parties, to restrict their membership to persons who share a protected characteristic. The only exception is that membership can never be restricted on the basis of colour.

It is legal for GG to restrict membership to women, girls and tw with a GRC as these all share the pc of sex. Those without a GRC do not share the pc of sex with women and girls.

12.49 Associations that restrict membership to persons who share a particular protected characteristic must not discriminate in relation to any other protected characteristic.

So in the case of a transboy being managed out of GG - she shares the PC of sex with other members because no GRC. It is not lawful to discriminate against her because she also has the pc of gender reassignment.

pp 30-32 cover gender reassignment:

2.17 The Act defines gender reassignment as a protected characteristic. People who are proposing to undergo, are undergoing or have undergone a process (or part of a process) to reassign their sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

2.20 The reassignment of a person’s sex may be proposed but never gone through; the person may be in the process of reassigning their sex ; or the process may have happened previously.

It's not logically possible to be both proposing to undergo / be undergoing the process of reassigning one's sex while simultaneously already sharing the protected characteristic of sex with those of the preferred sex.

2.26 The Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA) provides that where a person holds a gender recognition certificate they must be treated according to their acquired gender (see the GRA for details on those who are covered by that Act; see also the Data Protection Act 1998 which deals with processing sensitive personal information).

There is no mention in this section that those without a GRC must be treated according to their acquired gender, just that they have the pc of gender reassignment.

EHRC statutory guidance page 38 of the PDF:

2.56 A comparator for the purposes of showing sex discrimination will be a person of the opposite sex. Sex does not include gender reassignment (see paragraphs 2.17 to 2.27) or sexual orientation (see paragraphs 2.60 to 2.64).

Sex does not include gender reassignment

Taken from Girl Scouts in the US (equivalent of Guides I believe) on including trans children

Girl Scouts is proud to be the premiere leadership organization for girls in the country. Placement of transgender youth is handled on a case-by-case basis, with the welfare and best interests of the child and the members of the troop/group in question a top priority. That said, if the child is recognized by the family and school/community as a girl and lives culturally as a girl, then Girl Scouts is an organization that can serve her in a setting that is both emotionally and physically safe.

Genuinely interested what lives culturally as a girl means. No comment about leaders.

She underwent surgery when she was 17
That is horrific! To undergo surgery as a child that would render you permanently infertile, should not be allowed.
A boy wouldn't be allowed to have a vasectomy at that age, but chopping his penis off is fine?

But ... the point is that they don't want to do anything with that penis, isn't it? That many don't even want that penis. I don't think there are statistics, but lesbian transgender girls must be few and far between?
You are guessing and completely wrong. Many trans women keep their penis so they can continue to have a satisfactory sex life. Many identify as lesbians and have PIV sex with women.

And what you described- aren't they just cross-dressing in that case? To change one's gender is more than growing one's hair and changing into women's clothes, surely?
No, that accounts for the vast majority of transwomen. Most keep their penis. The only changes they make are how they present themselves. Many take hormones, but they still retain a fully functioning penis.

Something I have noted recently that bears on what Italiangreyhound said. If trans identified males do not specify bottom surgery, they are talking about "feminization" surgery.

Heggy79 My dd left Guides because she got bored with it. But had she stayed in I would be slightly worried by their new stance. I am sure your friend is lovely but I've got loads of lovely male friends and I would not expect my daughter to share a tent with them.

Your friend underwent surgery when she was 17. Does this mean so called 'bottom' surgery, the penis changed into a vagina shape, or was it another kind of surgery like breast implants or facial feminisatin surgery? As far as I am aware the sexual reconstruction surgery is illegal at that age in the UK but is legal in other places so she may have gone elsewhere.

Generally speaking trans people do not like talking about what surgeries they have had and it is considered rude to ask, so for a lot of trans people no one would really know what surgery they had or had not had.

"Would you let her be a Guide? At which point in her journey?" Would I personally, no, because Girl Guides is a single sex organisation, or it was, until a short while ago when it decided that girls who identified as boys were out and boys who identified as girls were in!

Would Girl Guides now, yes they wold and they would not tell anyone if she was staying in a tent with girls regardless of whether she had had any surgery or not.

"...we also shouldn't demonise or exclude children just because we disagree with their perception of who they are, should we?" No one wants to demonise anyone. I don't want to demonise men but I don't want to shower with them.

Sorry guys no idea what that posted twice.

Hey Truscum, I know, I read an amazing post here a while back about the 'honour system' that longer transitioned transsexuals passed on to the newbies, about how NOT to encroach on women, how it was never about making women feel unsafe or embarrassed, tips on which loos were safe unisex cubicles, honest discussions about gender, etc.

God knows what's happened, but it's a crying shame for non AGP transsexuals and for women and kids.

and most of them WOULDN'T WANT to join guides as a kid or an adult as they know they are a type of gay man

Absolutely right.

If you go online (not for the weak stomached) you'll read stories of them stealing their sisters underwear and masturbating in it (bruce jenner did this with his ten year old daughter's undies whilst watching himself in a mirror).

Many of them are heavily into porn, and fantasize at being f**cked like a woman, being submissive like a woman, and they are AROUSED by being in women's spaces, often they like hearing women urinate, or unwrap sanitary products, often they insert tampons into their anus (seen those pics on twitter) and do all kinds of mad stuff to be 'like a woman'.

Lactation is another thing they are quite aroused by.

Here are the criteria. And here is one comment from reddit talking about taking hormones and using a breast pump to get milk. Notice the sexualised language, and feeling 'so submissive' and wanting 'to be sucked dry'.

These MEN have no business being in women's spaces or around little girls. They are not in the least distressed by their bodies, in fact they are erotically involved with THEMSELVES, you are just the prop. I am not ALLOWING children to be used as the furniture of someone's fetish.

Finally these MEN are hurting actual genuine transsexuals like your friend, as when this backlashes, which it will, these men can melt back into their ordinary lives. Oh and you should see what they do to their families transwidow.wordpress.com/2016/01/25/the-masculinity-of-mtf-transition/

"To decide that you can have anything you want, and to just take it, even if it’s very the identity of a set of people with whom you cannot, by definition, identify with, is a very masculine idea. It’s an idea that male privilege absolutely primes one for. Colonization, capitalism, rape, pillage. To want and to get, because you can, because you aren’t even aware of the possibility that you can’t. To shove aside the oppressed in your quest for getting. And to get away with that, as you always have, because of your privilege.

To wake up one day, more than a decade into marriage, deciding that you need something new and that nothing can or should stop you, is a very masculine idea. To hell with your wife, your family, your memories. To indulge this midlife crisis as men always have, whether it’s with a teenage mistress, a red corvette, or lipstick and a pair of heels, and let it destroy your family."

If you go online (not for the weak stomached) you'll read stories of them stealing their sisters underwear and masturbating in it (bruce jenner did this with his ten year old daughter's undies whilst watching himself in a mirror).

Many of them are heavily into porn, and fantasize at being f**cked like a woman, being submissive like a woman, and they are AROUSED by being in women's spaces, often they like hearing women urinate, or unwrap sanitary products, often they insert tampons into their anus (seen those pics on twitter) and do all kinds of mad stuff to be 'like a woman'.

Lactation is another thing they are quite aroused by.

Here are the criteria. And here is one comment from reddit talking about taking hormones and using a breast pump to get milk. Notice the sexualised language, and feeling 'so submissive' and wanting 'to be sucked dry'.

These MEN have no business being in women's spaces or around little girls. They are not in the least distressed by their bodies, in fact they are erotically involved with THEMSELVES, you are just the prop. I am not ALLOWING children to be used as the furniture of someone's fetish.

Finally these MEN are hurting actual genuine transsexuals like your friend, as when this backlashes, which it will, these men can melt back into their ordinary lives. Oh and you should see what they do to their families transwidow.wordpress.com/2016/01/25/the-masculinity-of-mtf-transition/

"To decide that you can have anything you want, and to just take it, even if it’s very the identity of a set of people with whom you cannot, by definition, identify with, is a very masculine idea. It’s an idea that male privilege absolutely primes one for. Colonization, capitalism, rape, pillage. To want and to get, because you can, because you aren’t even aware of the possibility that you can’t. To shove aside the oppressed in your quest for getting. And to get away with that, as you always have, because of your privilege.

To wake up one day, more than a decade into marriage, deciding that you need something new and that nothing can or should stop you, is a very masculine idea. To hell with your wife, your family, your memories. To indulge this midlife crisis as men always have, whether it’s with a teenage mistress, a red corvette, or lipstick and a pair of heels, and let it destroy your family."

Lesbians are more than a little fed up with having heterosexual males declaring themselves to be lesbians and insisting that it is transphobic for women to deny them.

80% of transwomen keep their penis, less than 20% have ANY treatment, and those that do usually mean boobies and facial feminization surgery, they like the lady dick.

90% of them DO NOT HAVE DYSPHORIA, they have a fetish called autogynephilia. Most are rufty tufty boys, go into hyper masculine jobs like the marines, the army, become a fireman, work in really male dominated jobs like tech, marry, have kids, and cross dress. Bit link with domestic abuse, and most are HETEROSEXUAL. In order to justify their continuing attraction to women, they call themselves lesbians. They are vile to actual lesbians who won't bow down to the penis.

10% are genuine dysphoric transsexuals, most are usually gay (unlike your friend, who is straight, male fancying females), and these guys are usually not the problem, and most of them WOULDN'T WANT to join guides as a kid or an adult as they know they are a type of gay man.

Here is a little infographic

Heggy

But ... the point is that they don't want to do anything with that penis, isn't it? That many don't even want that penis*

And this is where the schism happens. Both for someone like you, and your friend and women.

Firstly, about the only study into male pattern criminality of men who transition to female, found that despite surgery, and the diagnosis of gender dysphoria, they still conform to male pattern criminality.

However, many of them are gay, i.e. attracted to men, aren't political and just want to get on with it. They reject their male anatomy and any hint of masculinity.

But the schism arises with the other type of transwoman, endorsed by Stonewall, who are indeed, cross dressers. They are as much transwomen, as men with gender dysphoria. Despite them calling men with gender dysphoria TruScum.

This is a good thread, which breaks it down. The different types of gender dysphoria and the different reasons for transitioning.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Heggy79
According to Stonewall cross-dressers are one of the groups of people included under the 'trans' umbrella:
"Trans – an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) Transgender, Transsexual, Gender-queer (GQ), Gender-fluid, Non-binary, Gender-variant, Crossdresser, Genderless, Agender, Nongender, Third gender, Two-spirit, Bi-gender, Trans man, Trans woman,Trans masculine, Trans feminine and Neutrois."

But ... the point is that they don't want to do anything with that penis, isn't it?

Sadly not always true (as far as I’ve seen with the new trendy trans)

There is currently a wealth of young boys (and much older men) claiming they are now ‘lesbian’ girls. Meaning they fully intend to use their penis to have sex with girls.

For what other reason would they keep it? If their biological sex distressed them so much they’d surely get rid if they didn’t intend to be using it?

As an aside I don’t see a lot of the expected self hatred in this nu-trans movement. They really do seem to love themselves and are happy to show off their ‘lady penis’ online.

No wonder they hate the idea that you need actual gender dysphoria to be a true trans.

aren't they just cross-dressing in that case? To change one's gender is more than growing one's hair and changing into women's clothes, surely?

Ah, I see you are a TERF madam. What's that you say about growing your hair and shaving your luxuriant beard changing into women's clothes?

Welcome to base camp. We're at about 5,000 metres here so you may feel the lack of sense oxygen as you acclimatise.

Please allow me to introduce exhibit A - Danielle Muscato (Google image search is your friend here) Pop back in when you're done.

Heggy sorry to disappoint but even for those who legally change gender the majority have no surgery or medical treatment.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets: Allow us to be your guides

Thank you.

Is it really most transgender men/women ... Is it just a vocal few who skew perception?

And what you described- aren't they just cross-dressing in that case? To change one's gender is more than growing one's hair and changing into women's clothes, surely?

Excuse my naivety- I really don't know much about the issue.