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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?
  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.
  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.
  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

OP posts:
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SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 19:49

Yes, i am a parent of a Brownie and i am worried about this. The thing that stands out for me is tgat the girls and the parents WONT BE TOLD, if they will be sharing accomodation and facilities with boys. It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE to do a risk assessment, because as leaders you will not have all the information about all the girls, that the parents have.

This policy removes the ability of girls and parents to give INFORMED CONSENT. Why do the boys get to decide who they feel comfortable and safe with; but that consideration isnt extended to the girls....who the organisation is supposedly for?!?!?

Lemonjello · 05/03/2018 19:47

I absolutely would raise it with the parents of your girls. Many of them will have no idea about it. I’m certain you can find a way to raise it sensitively and from a perspective of safeguarding their children, because that’s exactly what you have managed to do in your post here.

Your point about the GG contravening the NSPCC advice is excellent and I would press the leaders on that.

OvaHere · 05/03/2018 19:46

You are correct in your concerns OP. The push for organisations to be 'inclusive' is throwing all the safeguarding advice and expertise that has built up over decades right out of the window.

It may (or may not) take a while but eventually at least one young girl somewhere will be assaulted on one of these sleepovers when a school or GG type organisation is in loco parentis.

I can imagine the reaction of the parents when they discover their daughter was placed in accommodation with the opposite sex and they were deliberately not told about it.

The whole thing is a huge shitstorm waiting to happen.

ChampiontheWonderHamster · 05/03/2018 19:44

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ferntwist · 05/03/2018 19:44

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ferntwist · 05/03/2018 19:43

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Datun · 05/03/2018 19:41

So are you saying they don't do a risk assessment, on the basis they don't consider it a risk?

14-year-old boys are sharing a tent with 10-year-old girls?

ShirtTieJacket · 05/03/2018 19:39

Thank you. The children in your care sound safe.

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