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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?
  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.
  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.
  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

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AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:54

GGUK has received training from Gendered Intelligence, a community interest company, which has also helped GG devise their policy on transgender members.

Gendered Intelligence has put together a series of resources with GG on gender identity issues for girls as young as 4 (Rainbows starts at 4 in Northern Ireland and 5 elsewhere in the UK)

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/talking-about-gender-and-gender-identity/

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SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 22:50

The problem is that the GG believe that gender self-identification LITERALLY changes the individual boy into an actual girl. Which is why, they dont recognise any safeguarding conglict concetn. This view is supported by the NSPCC. I wrote to them about my concerns thst the GG policy contravenes all safeguiding practice everywhere, ever and also the Equalities Act 2010

WooWooSister · 05/03/2018 22:49

I'm so disappointed with them. I contacted HQ over a year ago about this.
It seems they're now gaslighting people by saying GG was always single gender. It wasn't. It was always single sex. Their members, parents and leaders know it was single sex.
I'm guessing all the gender nonsense is funding related. But they should have been honest about being pushed to make this change.
Either they are being duplicitous about it because they know their membership would plummet. Or they think everyone in an unit would know who was trans and react accordingly.

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:46

@littlestgirlguide25

Leaders do not share tents with Guides. No person aged 18+ is allowed to share with anyone under 18 (this has caused problems when the group is Rangers, who are aged 14-25, and the friendship groups are year 12s aged 17/18).

Leaders MAY share a tent in a separate bedroom (big tents with several rooms) but in my experience prefer not to. We like our own space!

I've never been a leader with Guides, only Brownies and Rainbows so I'll defer to you on sleeping arrangements at Guide camp. But leaders DO sleep in the same room as Brownies and Rainbows - in most locations there is no other option.

And as you say, most facilities don't have enough rooms for everyone to have their own private bedroom.

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scrappydappydoo · 05/03/2018 22:45

Sena - I honestly don't know. I'm really new to this whole debate. But I am concerned about it - I and my dds have massively benefitted from guides precisely because it was single sex. I want them to continue and go on camp. I disagree with this policy and can see it puts guiders in a really difficult position so I was trying to think of ways round the situation.

nmg85 · 05/03/2018 22:45

As a rainbow and brownie leader I feel we are being put in an awkward position. I have no issues with anyone identifying as trans at all and see it as everyone's right to be who they want to be! However... the parents and the girls trust me to keep them safe and to be honest with them and if I can't do that then why would I put myself in that situation where I potentially have to lie / omit the truth and possibly put people in uncomfortable positions.

littlestgirlguide25 · 05/03/2018 22:40

Snibble, yes, theoretically. In practice it is likely their friendship groups are different though so they would not be together.

SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 22:40

snibble i raised that point. This is their response;

We do not make decisions based on presumptions of what people from different cultures may or may not think about any aspect of guiding, the principles it upholds or its policies

We are open to all girls from all backgrounds and always have been. If this means that some people are not interested in joining Girlguiding, that is their choice

(See my post above for their full reply)

They prioritise boys inclusion over girls of any culture which doesnt allow socialising/sharing accomodation with boys. They can just 'choose not to join'

SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 22:36

So for the older ones you could have A 14 yo girl in with a 17 yo boy.

LangCleg · 05/03/2018 22:36

I also asked GGUK whether they believed a person with a penis sharing accommodation was with a person with a vagina was materially different to two girls sharing and that sexual activity - consensual or otherwise was a possibility. No answer from GGUK.

I honestly cannot believe what I am reading, AgnesBadenPowell.

This is not an identity issue! This is safe guarding the sexual health of minors issue! It doesn't matter what these kids believe their inner identity is. They're kids! You can't put one capable of insemination in with one capable of conception!

It's got nothing to do with transphobia.

SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 22:35

The other point about inclusion is that the possibility of having to undress/ bunk in with etc a boy excludes many groups of girls for cultural/ religious reasons which goes against their own inclusion policy is have thought? Plus all the families/ girls who don't want to do that because they just don't, culture/ religion aside.

Although it is a cultural norm in the UK not to get undressed etc in front of opposite sex over a certain age isn't it, so ????

SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 22:34

How do you think that would play out though scrappy?

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:29

@MorbidMuch

The irony is that GGUK is still committed to breaking gender stereotypes whilst simultaneously reinforcing them with the idea of gender feelings.

I raised this very point in my letter to GGHQ. This is what I said:

The Girls’ Attitudes Survey 2017 highlights “how girls and young women face relentless pressure from seeing and hearing gender stereotypes on a daily basis, with girls as young as seven saying these stereotypes affect their ability to say what they think” (https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/gender-stereotypes-impacting-behaviour-of-girls-as-young-as-seven/) .

I therefore ask you to advise how Girlguiding UK will reconcile gender self-identification with its stated intention of standing up to gender stereotypes, which Sophie Wallace (a member of the Girlguiding Advocate Panel) said “aren’t just harmful, but a barrier to progress”.

No answer, just a pithy statement about always working to breakdown stereotypes Hmm

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scrappydappydoo · 05/03/2018 22:28

Following with interest - can I as a parent put on every one of my dds camp forms that I do not want them to share with biological males. Therefore circumnavigating the need for the leaders to disclose information to me but also ensuring my dds right to a single sex space?

SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 22:26

Ok, this is the first reply i got from GG HQ when i asked (i am a parent, not a guider);

Dear Xxxxxx,

Thank you for your email.

Girlguiding has always been a single gender organisation and is committed to ensuring that girls and young women are given a space to challenge gender stereotypes.

When we use the term ‘gender identity’ in guiding we are referring to a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman. We consider this to be separate to the biological definition of sex – being male or female.

We cannot disclose to you if there is a trans child in your daughter’s Rainbow unit and we will not be able to disclose this to you in the future.

This is a requirement that safeguards the trans person who is very vulnerable, and open to discrimination and abuse.

If you are uncomfortable about your daughter potentially sharing accommodation with a trans child, you can discuss this with their Leader who will be supported by us to manage this discretely and sensitively.

However, in accordance with our policy, they will not be able to tell you if there is a trans child in the unit without the permission of that child and their parents.

At Girlguiding we take safeguarding very seriously. All of our adult volunteers, of any gender, are DBS checked and our volunteers attend safeguarding training. Any safeguarding concerns would be managed through our safeguarding policies and processes available here:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/safety-and-safeguarding-policy/

Girlguiding is an inclusive organisation and is committed to being open and providing equality of opportunity for all girls and young women.

We do not make decisions based on presumptions of what people from different cultures may or may not think about any aspect of guiding, the principles it upholds or its policies.
Decisions are based on giving any girl who wishes to attend guiding the option to be part of our wonderful charity. We are open to all girls from all backgrounds and always have been. If this means that some people are not interested in joining Girlguiding, that is their choice.
Excluding groups of girls gives no one any choice and is not what Girlguiding stands for. We are for all girls, from all walks of life and we will continue to open our doors to anyone based on that principle.

I hope that this answers you query

Best wishes

Xxxx Xxxxxxx

Inclusion Project Coordinator

Membership Recruitment & Retention

littlestgirlguide25 · 05/03/2018 22:26

I am guider and have camped many many times with my Guides.

Leaders do not share tents with Guides. No person aged 18+ is allowed to share with anyone under 18 (this has caused problems when the group is Rangers, who are aged 14-25, and the friendship groups are year 12s aged 17/18).

Leaders MAY share a tent in a separate bedroom (big tents with several rooms) but in my experience prefer not to. We like our own space!

On indoor holidays the Guides share dormitories or bedrooms, leaders share rooms together.

A Guide/Ranger aged 10-16 could be asked to share with a trans girl in that age range and the leaders would not be allowed to tell the girl or the parents.

A leader could be asked to share with a trans woman.

Guide houses don't have unlimited bedrooms. We can't provide separate rooms for everyone who asks for one. Undoubtedly the result is that bio girls and leaders who are uncomfortable with the idea will just not go.

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:25

@Aftershock15

It’s interestng that the reply from GG was that it had always been a single gender organisation. When I was young it was a single sex organisation.

It always** was single sex. GG are rewriting history. The movement started because people of the female sex were not allowed to join Scouts.

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Lemonjello · 05/03/2018 22:24

When I suggested you inform the parents of this I meant the policy in general.

That is surely not against the rules as it is in the public domain anyway.

I don’t know how GG works at all but could you ask parents to stay behind at the end and highlight this policy to them, acknowledging that some of them may not be comfortable with their daughters sharing with male bodied young people, but this is policy now and you are not permitted by GG to inform them of any mixed sex sharing?

drspouse · 05/03/2018 22:24

@AgnesBadenPowell I guessed that one friend did, and I was correct.

drspouse · 05/03/2018 22:23

Leaders CAN share if they are female.
Our Rainbow leaders shared a tent with their girls in our joint camp (they were in the glamping one with beds).
I've slept in an alcove off a girl bedroom.
Safeguarding says never be alone with one girl however.

fuckoffsnow · 05/03/2018 22:21

My time in the Brownies and Guides were some of the happiest in my childhood. I did my ALQ while at uni. One of the first things I thought about when I found out DC would be a girl was "I hope she wants to join Rainbows when she's old enough". If this is still their policy in 2 years, she won't be going. I'd be more comfortable with the Scouts policy, until they also decide that girls don't have the right to know they're bunking with boys.

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:21

@drspouse

Do you know any other Guide leaders that agree with you? There must a quite a few here on Mumsnet.

I don't know any other leaders IRL who feel like me. No one speaks out publicly for fear of being kicked out, or labelled transphobic, or they believe what GG tell them about penises being female. Part of my motivation for posting this was to find others who share my concerns with the protection of being anonymous.

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SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 22:20

I don't think an adult shares?

Our guide trips they go to a place with dorm type things for 4/6/8 etc girls, the leaders are in their own room.

SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 22:20

owli do you mean most of your enquiries are about adult TIMS wanting to become Guiding leaders?

steppemum · 05/03/2018 22:18

my daughter is a scout. They have very clear policies on accommodation, no sharing of boys and girls. It isn't an issue, one unit, 2 bedrooms/tents. It is actually pretty straightforward.

If my daughter was a guide, and the guider could not answer the question - will she be sharing with only girls, ie biological girls? Then I would not be sending her away on the residential trip.
The guidance is nonsense. The only solution is to say that on residential trips there will be separate accommodation for the trans kids. Nothing else conforms to safeguarding guidance.

It makes me sad that the glaringly obvious, ie teenage boys and girls sharing is a bad idea - is lost under the desire to be PC.

What has happened to common sense in this country!

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