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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?
  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.
  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.
  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

OP posts:
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drspouse · 11/03/2018 20:23

@ofclocksandkings
The GG guidance is that we are not allowed to tell any other girl or any leader that there is a trans-identifying boy on the camp or at an e.g. swimming session.
So how are you going to work out who is uncomfortable?
If I, as a leader who has experienced anxiety and has some issues in my history that I'm not going to tell you about explicitly, does not want to share with a trans-identifying man, are you going to tell me that's fine, I'm just being prejudiced and I should get over it magically?

Do you seriously think that a religious Muslim parent is going to react well to your "questioning them" or are they just, you know, going to exclude their daughter (who also "hasn't done anything wrong" and who arguably has no other place to go - as her parent likely wants her in a single sex space).

TheMonstrousRegiment · 11/03/2018 20:20

@ofclocksandkings

Ok, so it sounds like you have your mind ( as well as deciding the girls' minds for them ) made up regarding the position of the girls and their privacy.

However, have you really considered the entire ramifications of self-id?

Self-id means that ANYONE can self-id as a woman and you cannot challenge it. SO if a man shows up to either participate as a guide (currently age 25 and under) or as a guider and states he is a woman, you have no recourse to saying no. HE DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A TRANSWOMAN. Do you understand this? This law is opening up women's space to anyone, and if you have ever followed the news you will know that deviant persons will take advantage of any situation that provides an opening.

Do you seriously care about your girls and their safety? Have a rethink about this policy.

LangCleg · 11/03/2018 20:02

"oh, it's just someone with a boy's body and a girl's brain", which totally satisfied the original girl. I know that this is an overly simplified explanation, but it's a good starting point

How is that a good starting point? Our brains aren't separate to the rest of us and they certainly don't have a bloody gender. This is misinformation on a grand scale - and if kids are wandering about thinking such nonsense, it's even more likely their thinking will be as muddled about everything else they need to know about their bodies and their upcoming sexual health.

Christ. This is worse than abstinence only education curricula in religious areas of the US. And just like in those areas of the US, it will result in increased levels of STDs and pregnancies in young girls.

Just say the word trans and decades of knowledge about child protection and education disappears in a puff of bloody smoke.

StickStickStickStick · 11/03/2018 19:56

I've been all through the guide movement and have girls in it myself. Half the point is not having to be self conscious with bodies and changing in front of boys. The responsibility should be keeping boys out, not on a girl to have to speak up that she's (quite understandablt) uncomfortable .

I'm truly shocked.

StickStickStickStick · 11/03/2018 19:55

Exactly !!

titchy · 11/03/2018 19:54

If a parent was uncomfortable with their child sharing with a trans child or any other child I would be questioning the parent trying to stop us including another child rather excluding the child who hadn't done anything wrong.

Shock Fucking hell! Talk about encouraging victim blaming.

ofclocksandkings · 11/03/2018 19:42

StickStickStickStick

100 girls change in their tents, so realistically in front of no more than 2 or 3 people. If they want they can take it in turns to change in the tent, or anyone who wants to can change in the toilets / showers / a leader's (unoccupied tent). Guide camp isn't just 100 girls naked in a field!

ofclocksandkings · 11/03/2018 19:32

italiangreyhound DodoPatrol

One example was when one of the Brownies had brought in Goodnight Stories for Rebel Girls, and wanted to read a few of the stories to the other girls. There's a story about a trans girl in America who campaigned for gender neutral bathrooms in her school district (and won). One of the girls asked what a trans girl was and another Brownie said "oh, it's just someone with a boy's body and a girl's brain", which totally satisfied the original girl. I know that this is an overly simplified explanation, but it's a good starting point and relevant to their ages.

StickStickStickStick · 11/03/2018 19:32

I would be one of the many questioning parents as most of this thread!

StickStickStickStick · 11/03/2018 19:32

So the 99 girls have to change in front of a boy. Needs of the many overriden by the needs of the one.

StickStickStickStick · 11/03/2018 19:31

Gosh :(

ofclocksandkings · 11/03/2018 19:28

@drspouse

If any leader or girl was uncomfortable with sharing with any other leader or girl (for any reason) than I'd address that and they could go in different rooms.

If a parent was uncomfortable with their child sharing with a trans child or any other child I would be questioning the parent trying to stop us including another child rather excluding the child who hadn't done anything wrong.

And yes, on a big camp with 100 girls they couldn't all change in the loo, but I wouldn't expect a large portion of girls to have issues with changing in front of each other - I would imagine that this would only be a few girls based on my experience of teenage girls.

StickStickStickStick · 11/03/2018 19:01

I'd be really uncomfortable with my child going to ofcourse's group and being told trans is completely normal way to express self etc. I'd rather they were told gender does NOT equal choice of hairstyles/toys/etc.

Brainwashing :(

Italiangreyhound · 11/03/2018 18:27

ofclocks "I've occasionally seen a bit of confusion, but the other girls then clear it right up." Can you give an example of what you mean, please?

Jaggythistle · 11/03/2018 18:24

Just read a bit of the rainbows "discussing gender" guidance. The first sentence of the "background" had me rolling my eyes. :(

"Background
From a very young age children develop a sense of gender. This can be shown through their choice of
clothes, hairstyles or toys that they play with. "

Or they could just be kids trying stuff out with no idea of what gender is until they absorb the stereotypes from adults and older kids. 🤔

TheMonstrousRegiment · 11/03/2018 18:02

@Datun and @GirlScout72 Thank you for all the info, I'll check out that link. Damn though, was hoping when GirlScout was talking about exemptions that there was a light at the end of this bloody tunnel.

Datun that Gender Spectrum pic gave me the creeps. That far left little pink lady reminded me of 50s ladies Envy Notice how the further 'female' you are the smaller the waist, WTH!

DodoPatrol · 11/03/2018 17:44

Ofclocks - can you expand on 'the children have been totally chill with it and don't even see that it could be a negative thing, as it's brought up in schools. I've occasionally seen a bit of confusion, but the other girls then clear it right up'?

What I'm seeing is that children who do have any problem with it very quickly learn that they will be hushed and frowned down by the others. They learn not to say anything, however uneasy they feel.

HaruNoSakura · 11/03/2018 15:26

@PencilsInSpace

"Which bit of the EHRC code does it explain and how?"

Fully, so if people want to look it up it'll be easier for them:

Code of Practice: Services, public functions and associations Statutory Code of Practice ; Chapter 13, s13.57 - s13.60 (Equality and Human Rights Commission, 2011, ISBN: 978-0-10-850972-8)

For those who aren't aware, courts and tribunals are legally obliged to take into account guidance issued in Statutory Codes of Practice produced by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (read; unless there is an obvious reason to not adhere to the guidance issued in the stat code a court will use it to reach its determination). For this particular Statutory Code it's validity was authorised via this Statutory Instrument.

So then the example given here.

Fully, the example given is, "A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful."

When the courts look at this example, or any case where the exemption is being applied, the criteria used will be an objective test to see if the arguments put forward by the service can justify the claim put forward by the service that its discrimination against a transsexual person is both a legitimate aim and a proportionate means. The objective test will take into account all the relevant factors involved in the argument put forth. So in the example give, what relevant factors will the court take into account?

i) The example details a situation where a group of people are involved. Every person in that group, whether a woman or transsexual woman shares something in common, they are all victims/survivors of sexual assault. So when the court considers the case they will take a neutral and dispassionate view of all the people who could be effected by this case, but won't include in their consideration people who don't share that characteristic. Furthermore, the service provider cannot provide a less discriminatory way of providing this specific session. Either somebody is able to attend, or they are not able to attend.

ii) The court will take into consideration that all the people in the example share another characteristic. They all wish access to a group counselling session specifically set-up to help victims/survivors of sexual assault. The court will not take into account people who don't wish to have access to this service. It sounds like a statement of the bleeding obvious, but it's important for (iii) and (iv) below.

iii) It is objectively reasonable to state that that it can be assumed that all the people involved in the consideration have already experienced significant and severe harm. This decision is reached because it is extremely likely like all the people involved in the consideration have experienced sexual assault (because they are seeking access to group counselling session that is focussed on helping victims/survivors of sexual assault), and that they have experienced significant and severe harm as a result of experiencing sexual assault (a statement that objectively stands on its own, and then is also confirmed by the fact that the victims/survivors are seeking access to a group counselling session that is focussed on helping victims/survivors of sexual assault).

iv) it is objectively reasonable to reach the conclusion that because of (iii) anybody, whether they are a woman or transsexual woman, would experience further severe and significant harm if they are unable to access this service for whatever reason. This conclusion is reached objectively because every person being taken into account in the consideration is attempting to access the service and therefore it can be assumed, only the balance of probability, that every person needs to have access to that service, and that independent expert studies show that those who don't have access to such studies not only continue to experience severe and significant harm, but will also experience more severe and significant harm.

v) It is objectively reasonable to state that given the group counselling session is for victims/survivors of sexual assault that the perpetrators of that assault are, by average consideration, considerably more likely to men than women. This can be, again, be verified by independent expert research and evidence. (As a contrary example, if the group counselling session had been set-up for women who had been sexually assaulted by same-sex partners then, of course, that conclusion wouldn't be objectively reasonable. This example-within-an-example is a way of showing that when the parameters of the situation change, the way that the situation is considered also changes).

vi) Up until this point the considerations being made by the court doesn't have to differentiate between women and transsexual women trying to access the counselling service. But now the court decides that it's appropriate to look at these two groups separately for the next sections.

vii) Because the victims/survivors of the sexual assault are more likely to have been assaulted by men than women then it is objectively reasonable to say that the presence of one or more non-transsexual men in the group counselling session could cause any person in that group to experience significant distress as a result of the vulnerability they are experiencing while part of that group and, as a result of that increased level of harm experienced, it is objectively reasonable to state that they may not attend the session as a result. It is also objectively reasonable to consider that a transsexual woman is less likely to perceive a non-transsexual woman as being a non-transsexual man, than a non-transsexual woman perceiving a transsexual woman as being a non-transsexual man. Therefore the likelihood of a person of experiencing distress, and therefore harm, as the result of the perception of a non-transsexual man being part of the group is higher for non-transsexual women than transsexual women. (Note, this isn't a numbers thing. It is just saying that as an average across an unspecified group size a non-transsexual woman is more likely to perceive a non-transsexual man being present, compared to a transsexual woman perceiving a non-transgender man being present.)

viii) The act of deliberately excluding somebody from a service based on a protected characteristic is an act of discrimination, whether lawful or not. The court will recognise that regardless of how lawful the action was, any person who has been discriminated against has experienced harm (this has already been determined by case law involving discrimination with the same protected characteristic but in different areas like employment), and that this must also be taken into account when the case is being considered. (Note that choosing not to use the service is not in itself considered harmful, regardless of the reasons why (unless it can be shown to be unlawful discrimination under EA2010). However, consideration can, and in this example, has been given to the harm caused if, as an average, a woman is may be unable to attend the group counselling session because the presence of a transsexual woman makes them feel too vulnerable to access the service.)

ix) It is objectively justifiable to state that when the group counselling service was set-up the demographics of the country as a whole means that the service provider would expect a much higher proportion of women seeking to access the service compared to the number of transsexual women. Barring other factors (these factors would actually be taken into consideration and revolve around incidence of sexual assault for the relevant groups, population groupings, etc, but is too complicated to take into account here) the court could come to the objective conclusion that the service provider was right in their assessment, on balance the number of women seeking to access the service would be significantly greater than the number of transsexual women.

x) Therefore:

• When taken as an individual experience, the inability of any woman or transsexual woman to access the group counselling service causes the same level of harm, but the transsexual woman would also experience more harm as a result of being discriminated against. Therefore, going by this standard, the service would not be acting legally by excluding the transsexual woman from the counselling service. But that is a subjective test, as it only focusses on the individualistic experiences of a single woman, and a single transsexual woman. I've put it in here to show just how different a conclusion reached by a subjective test of whether something is justifiable is compared to when an objective test is applied.

• Objectively, the harm experienced by any woman or any transsexual woman being unable to access the service is the same. However, any transsexual woman is also experiencing additional harm as a result of the additional discrimination faced in the example provided. But when viewed in totality, the court comes to the conclusion that in this situation the aggregate amount of harm that may be experienced as a result of an unspecified number of women feeling unable to access the service is greater than the aggregate amount of harm that may be experienced by an unspecified number of transsexual woman who have been barred from accessing the service via a discriminatory measure. Therefore, as courts will always seek the path of greater benefit, or least harm, in these cases, the court decides that the service provider has objectively justified that they have had a legitimate aim and have acted with proportional means when excluding transsexual people from the service. The service provider will actually increase the chances of getting that judgement if they can show that they've done everything they can to lay on alternative provision for the transsexual women (e.g. a group counselling session for the same purpose, but is specifically setup for transsexual women and non-transsexual women who are comfortable being in the same group.)

Now, it's really important to note, this isn't a numbers game. The court won't go, 'Here there are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 women affected,, 1 transsexual woman affected, therefore the transsexual woman can be legally discriminated against.' Just as importantly, it isn't a mathematical equation. Just because any individual woman and any individual transsexual woman would experience the same level of harm in being unable to access the service it doesn't make the harm cancel out for the purposes of the consideration. Everything relevant to the scenario must be taken into account.

So to transfer it across as a comparison: look at just how much the scales must tip to be able to objectively justify causing the harm that is solely experienced as the result of discrimination when the discrimination is crossing across protected characteristics. If the discrimination is occurring within a protected characteristic (discriminating against men in favour of women by setting up a group counselling session for female victims of sexual assault) the point at which it becomes objectively justifiable is lower. But because the entire purpose of EA2010 is to forbid unlawful discrimination, and the Act specifically prohibits the use of legal discrimination within one protected characteristic as a justification for discrimination against a different protected characteristic the point at which it becomes objectively justifiable to legally justify expanding that discrimination so it discriminates against multiple protected characteristics is set very high within the example given.

And I'm sorry, I'm going to have to call it a day. My brain is now refusing to cooperate, and I had to retype that last paragraph quite a few times. It kept on going in circles.

Hope this helps answer your questions.

drspouse · 11/03/2018 14:02

ofclocks What if you had a leader that was uncomfortable about sharing with a man? Or parents - whether religious or just, you know, relying on science to tell them who is male and female, who didn't want their daughter sharing with a boy?
On a big camp you can't possibly have all the girls changing in the loos - 100 girls in tents ranged up the field and 10-15 loos right at the bottom. Showers with curtains not locks and nowhere to put your dry clothes in the cubicle.

ofclocksandkings · 11/03/2018 13:20

@italiangreyhound I don't think you're having a go and I hope you don't think I am. I'm really interested in all this and especially in how you said you would have shared my views and now you don't.

By "a chat is had about where it is best for the young person to be, and they are signposted towards mixed gender youth groups" I can see how this can be seen as encouraged to leave. Personally I would only do this if I genuinely believed that they would be having a better experience elsewhere. It's important to me that no young person ever feels that I'm 'kicking them out'.

All parties may feel uncomfortable changing in front of each other (whether they are all girls, all boys, a mixture or and whether there are any trans kids there). Whenever I run a residential there is always a space for private changing so hopefully no one feels embarrassed changing. You're right, I wouldn't necessarily know if two young people wanted to have sex, but I might know if they were in a relationship or wanted to be.

I see a problem with telling the girls that there is a trans girl in the group as I wouldn't disclose this without the girls' permission. However, I have had chats with girls aged 7-14 (on different occasions) about trans stuff and every time the children have been totally chill with it and don't even see that it could be a negative thing, as it's brought up in schools. I've occasionally seen a bit of confusion, but the other girls then clear it right up. I think it's important to talk to young people and have them comfortable talking to me about these sorts of issues (which is why I volunteer with them). I also wouldn't feel uncomfortable with a trans woman using the changing areas in a gym (but that might be because I don't pay that much attention to other people while getting changed!)

Italiangreyhound · 11/03/2018 13:05

@ofclocksandkings "signposted towards mixed gender youth groups" or "encouraged to leave" as I said.

Do you agree with that policy? You do not need to answer if you do not wish to. I am not trying to be antagonistic, I am just interested. Smile

Who said anything about sex? "two young people were going to potentially have sex I would not put them in the same tent"

Of course that might happen (and I wonder how you would know if it was?) but quite aside from that maybe all parties would feel uncomfortable changing in front of each other.

"A significant proportion of girls are attracted to girls, and we don't stop them from sharing tents with other girls." Well, of course a girls group will need the girls to share unless you are giving them a tent each, but girls cannot get each other pregnant. And quite aside from that I think most parents would know some girls would be lesbians and would be fine with that. This is not about lesbians.

Can I ask you in all honestly if you see any problems or issues with telling the girls in your group that a natal boy identifies as a girl and they are expected to treat that child as one of the girls? If they wer say 10, or 14 or 17?

Would you have any issues with a natal male identifying a a woman and using the showers and women's changing area at the gym?

Please only answer if you wish to. I am not having a go. I expect I would have shared your views about 3 years ago. Now, I do not, because I see that girls and women are being given no choice in who uses spaces specifically for girls and women. And this all feels rather familiar. Sad

HaruNoSakura · 11/03/2018 12:55

@PencilsInSpace

I'll do the easy one first:

"Which leads. . .There is a paucity of case law. . .

This can change. . .A few strategic cases could bring the whole of this bullshit crashing to the ground."

So the problem here, and the reason why available case law is thin on the ground, is that a court case could only be brought when a service provider discriminates against somebody with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment and that person then brings a case against that service provider. It can't be done the other way around because there isn't a mechanism within the Equality Act 2010 that can be used to directly force a service provider to invoke the Sch.3 Part 7 s28 exemption.

To save space, in relation to this post:

13.59, for the sake of brevity, states that where a transsexual person is visually and practically indistinguishable. . .Or in other words, a service provider shouldn't, within reason, challenge that transsexual person on their use of facilities or resources. 13.59 doesn't say that if a transsexual person isn't visually or practically indistinguishable. . .etc; that they shouldn't be treated as their acquired gender. When using stat codes care should always be given to only give weight to what is written and to ignore any conclusion arrived at based on what hasn't been written. Likewise application of the guidance in 13.59 doesn't preclude the guidance laid down in 13.6, 13.57, and 13.58.

So I'm not reading into the code things that aren't there, instead I'm taking the relevant bits of the code and attempting to apply it to the question you asked. So nowhere in the code does it say that somebody who isn't indistinguishable from a non-transsexual person shouldn't be treated as their acquired gender identity, and the code does clearly state that, "If a service provider provides single- or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present†" and that "The intention is to ensure that the transsexual person is treated in a way that best meets their needs", and it can be seen that these codes are in turn partly derived from 13.6, "Where an exception permits discrimination in relation to one protected characteristic, service providers, persons exercising public functions and associations must ensure that they do not discriminate in relation to any of the other protected characteristics."

† 'present' in this case doesn't necessarily mean physical presentation via clothes or jewellery. Any presentation whether physical, verbal, or otherwise would meet the definition.

And I'll try and cover this post in my next post.

ofclocksandkings · 11/03/2018 12:45

Hi elletorro and italiangreyhound. Girlguiding policy actually isn't to 'kick out' young people transitioning ftm. The guidance is that leaders should still support the young person as it is a potentially traumatic time and one where not changing everything and being removed from their friends is important. The guidance is that once the young person is settled or at the time of transitioning between sections a chat is had about where it is best for the young person to be, and they are signposted towards mixed gender youth groups.

I find it surprising that everyone is so convinced that it would be a bad thing for them to sleep in the same room. As a leader if I was aware that two young people were going to potentially have sex I would not put them in the same tent, but I do think that a) it's unlikely that there would only be two young people in a tent or room and it's unlikely that they will have sex when there are other people there and b) if they want to have sex then they will find a way and having them sleep in separate rooms won't stop that. A significant proportion of girls are attracted to girls, and we don't stop them from sharing tents with other girls.

ilovemilton · 11/03/2018 12:45

Would the local leaders even know? Could a boy not just apply by stating that he was a girl, as that’s how he identifies; IYSWIM?

titchy · 11/03/2018 12:39

Girlguiding would be a great place to support a young person while they are having this tough time.

I entirely agree. Sadly GGUK would require any member to leave in those circumstances.

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