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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?
  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.
  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.
  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

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GrimDamnFanjo · 06/03/2018 00:29

From now on GGA is not an inclusive organisation. It is mixed sex and girls are yet again the losers.
All those campaigns about giving girls confidence to be the best they can be is out of the window.

AgnesBadenPowell · 06/03/2018 00:28

@GrimDamnFanjo as a leader I've found the policy making process to be very opaque. There's was no consultation that I was aware of. There are no all member general meetings. From where I am, GGHQ has taken on this new policy (with help from Gendered Intelligence) and imposed it on members.

People have said here that despite writing to the senior leadership, replies come back from more junior complaints handlers. Which is why I would like a face to face meeting.

It's very difficult to raise with your commissioner. I've seen firsthand Guiders being told that some penises are female and transgirls are girls. End of discussion. There's no guarantee you'll even be listened to, let alone be able to persuade county and regional commissioners to lobby against a policy which GGUK rigorously defended when the press first picked this up last year. The policy is in place and I can't see them backing down easily. What a mess.

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freshstart24 · 06/03/2018 00:28

As a scout leader I would like to clarify the scout association's policy on mixed sex sleeping arrangements.

This has recently been reworded and so it's worth checking that you are reading an up to date version when doing research. The policies can be found by googling scouts POR (policy, organisation and rules). Apologies I can't seem to do a link.

To get to the point: Scouts do permit mixed sex sleeping arrangements. So for example where there is only one girl on a camp it is likely that a risk assessment would place her in a tent with boys, rather than a tent alone. This would only happen after discussion and agreement with all involved parents. This has happened on 2 occasions in our group.

Similarly during an indoor camp girls would be permitted to share sleeping space with boys. This happens at our local indoor camp where there is one huge room where scouts sleep with two smaller rooms where the male and female leaders sleep separately.

It is a requirement that separate washing and changing facilities are provided.

I'm pointing out facts here, I agree with the argument of the thread and I just wanted to help those trying to take action to get the facts correct which I feel is important in order to make a strong case......

WooWooSister · 06/03/2018 00:24

It's been in the press. I can't remember if it was the DM or The Times. It wasn't enough tbh.
It didn't generate any groundswell. It's why a petition or a legal challenge may be better. They could raise it from being a disgruntled journalist to an issue with legal, safeguarding, funding and membership implications.

SmurfOrTerf · 06/03/2018 00:24

Agnes - its clearly not just you.

GrimDamnFanjo · 06/03/2018 00:20

By the way the organisations decision making used to be volunteer led. So the staff did not have much room for independent policy making. The chair of the Trustees will be the Chief Guide.

AgnesBadenPowell · 06/03/2018 00:19

I agree going to the press would be useful. But if it's just me, then I'll be labelled a transphobic bigot and get thrown out of GG. And everything carries on as it was before. This is why I'm seeking legal advice and also why I started this thread - to see what the feeling of parents is and whether any action would be supported.

I don't want to damage GGUK - I've been a member since I was 7. I love this organisation with all my heart, and the girls (hundreds!) that I've known over the years. It pains me to see my organisation completely disregard basic safeguarding principles. I'm not going without a fight. I have often wondered if it's me that's wrong but reading your responses has made me see I'm not going mad, they are valid concerns.

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GrimDamnFanjo · 06/03/2018 00:17

A long time ago I worked at the GGA hq and I am very surprised at the adoption of gender instead of sex. I used to spend a lot of time defending the organisations single sex policy. Al the research shows that girls thrive in a single sex social club, when it's mixed they miss out.
As an organisation GGA has a history of being risk averse, piloting the smallest changes.
They are proud of enabling girls to meet who would not otherwise be able to do so in a mixed environment.
The organisation has a hierarchy and a decision making body which is elected.
Was this policy adopted by the members/ the Council?
The way to get this tackled is to discuss it with District Commissioners upwards and then get Region reps to lobby.
But then, if it's actually formally been adopted as policy, it will be difficult to get it reversed...

SemaMjinga · 06/03/2018 00:12

Yy smerf what parents goes and checks new GG policy?? Parents ASSUME it is single sex. Leaders are going to be left to deal with (rightfully) angry parents when girls come home and say they were sharing with boys. Its not the Gendered Intelligence bods or the policy writers who will have to deal with the fallout from this

SmurfOrTerf · 06/03/2018 00:08

Boule I totally agree - the DM would love this. I hope they pick it up

SmurfOrTerf · 06/03/2018 00:07

Also I guess many parents are not aware of this.

Someone should tweet this thread

Bouledeneige · 06/03/2018 00:02

Folks. Very disturbing and worrying. I think contacting trustees and the Chair of GG is very important - safeguarding is top on most boards concerns at the moment. You should also consider writing to the Charity Commission invoking the recent issues about safeguarding and sexual exploitation in overseas aid organisations. And I hate to say it but the obvious thing to do is to mainstream it in the media - yes - the Daily Mail. Don't shoot me!

womanhuman · 06/03/2018 00:02

If this means that some people are not interested in joining Girlguiding, that is their choice.

This makes me want to cry. A girls organisation telling girls to put up or shut up.

I’m all out of rage.

Sex matters.

(Would happily contribute to a crowdfunder for this...)

MrsBodger · 06/03/2018 00:00

Should it also include:

  1. What guarantees will they give to their group leaders that they will not carry any personal liability if a parent/child seeks legal damages?
SemaMjinga · 06/03/2018 00:00

wine i did. It is unsatisfactory. I will post it tomorrow

LineysInTheSnow · 05/03/2018 23:58

A thought:

The GG and NSPCC have charitable status. There may be a challenge that can be mounted involving the Charity Commission.

Because stuff like GG has always been a single gender organisation is a flat-out lie and therefore unlikely to be incorporated into its articles; and the safeguarding risks are something the Charity Commission ought to take a big interest in.

But I'm no expert.

Winewinewinegin · 05/03/2018 23:48

ShockShockShock Datun

One day I hope to buy you a large gin.

Winewinewinegin · 05/03/2018 23:46

Shock Sema

Did you get a response from them?

Winewinewinegin · 05/03/2018 23:45

@Agnesbadenpowell I think a trustee meeting sounds like a very good idea. They need to be clear on:

  1. What are their current safeguarding policies in practice around these issues?
  2. How has this situation got to the point that multiple people have raised issues and got no satisfactory response? Who has been involved in this? Why have they been given and used inaccurate information? How will they ensure they keep up to date with the law and ensure every child knows and can exercise their rights? What additional resourcing might they need to do this?
  3. What other safeguarding issues may have been missed? How do they under current law know and track who is which biological sex and the implications of this. How do DBS checks work if someone has changed gender either officially or by self-identifying?
  4. How they will act under law to safeguard young girls and transgirls from the issues raised above now and in the event of any updates to the law? How will they ensure parents are informed of their policies and the implications so they can decide whether to withdraw their children if they wish?
AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 23:44

@WooWooSister a crowdfunder could be a way forward. For now, I'm using my contacts to find a suitable legal team. Once found, I need to be confident that we have a case before asking for donations. I'm prepared to invest my own money into the initial stages although it may be possible to get some pro bono advice

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SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 23:38

winewine i SENT my emails to the executive board and the trustees.

Datun · 05/03/2018 23:37

Mermaids, GIRES and Gendered Intelligence have been 're-educating' schools and single sex organisations for years.

It's simply not true the members of the opposite sex have to share overnight accommodation.

There are specific exemptions under equality law for just this issue.

But trans pressure groups have done a real bloody number on all these organisations.

There is no way the women who run girl guides don't understand the difference between sex and gender. Unless, and this is entitely possible, adult transwomen have infiltrated the management.

The letters and emails that have been sent to girl guides might well be producing a panic. I can totally see them forwarding these letters to the trans-pressure groups, who tell them what to write back.

Here is a thread about the exemptions.

"Again there is a exemption in the equality Act to deal with this (Schedule 23). It explicitly states that transgender people can be excluded from communal accommodation for use by one sex if that is that's the fairness thing to do overall. In other words, the least discriminatory option. The needs of all pupils must be considered."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3175666-Want-to-know-why-women-are-livid-trans-thread

Stephanie Davis Arai of Transgendertrend has been trying to counteract the notion that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment trumps that of sex.

It doesn't. It absolutely doesn't.

She has written guidance for schools, which would apply equally to other organisations.

She is very clear about balancing the needs of trans children and non-trans children. To uphold equality law, you have to take the least discriminatory option. Whatever that is. Her guidance is trans inclusive, completely. But it also operates within the law.

www.transgendertrend.com/transgender-schools-guidance/

Unsurprisingly, transactivists and pressure groups have called it dangerous and insist parents and teachers 'ban it, bin it and shred it'.

lilymaynard.wordpress.com/2018/02/15/ban-it-bin-it-shred-it-transgender-trends-new-guidelines-for-schools-the-activists-that-hate-it/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Because, if you understand equality law, the message that they are disseminating in schools and youth organisations comes across as completely wrong and biased.

And this is why now, today, the girl guides are driving a gigantic hole through safeguarding guidelines.

They have been trained and advised by people who have to justify their existence.

SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 23:35

woowoo a legal challenge is needed. I havent been able to find a firm willing to take it on, yet

SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 23:34

winewine my recent replies from NSPCC has been from a senior person. I am not going to disclose who, on here

I have been very explicit and detailed when corresponding fusion

WooWooSister · 05/03/2018 23:33

I wonder if a crowd funder for legal advice would help to highlight the issue (as it has done for Labour)? Or a petition ...
The GGs were always great at consulting with their members. It's appalling that such a fundamental change has been pushed through.

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