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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?
  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.
  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.
  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

OP posts:
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19
MorbidMuch · 06/03/2018 08:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

drspouse · 06/03/2018 08:13

the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 which makes clear that organisations providing single-sex services such as Girlguiding should treat people according to their acquired gender”
Can someone point me to where the Act says this?

Betaday · 06/03/2018 08:09

SemaMjinga Thank you for sharing the letter from the Head of Membership Recruitment and Retention stating “Girlguiding complies with the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 which makes clear that organisations providing single-sex services such as Girlguiding should treat people according to their acquired gender”

Why GG are ignoring, when it comes to accommodation at camps, the justified and legitimate aim of ensuring the health, safety and welfare of individuals, which is also enshrined in the Act as law.

IGG seem ignorant of objective justification. GG can justify single sex accommodation. There is a legitimate aim to ensure the health safety and welfare of biological females from biological males. It’s proportionate to have single sex accommodate on camps.

I’d help towards crowd funding the legal case.

Also, ‘ costs can be taken into account as part of the justification’ - can GG not consider the potential legal costs and fallout or are they just waiting for this to happen first. So irresponsible.

SmurfOrTerf · 06/03/2018 08:02

putting including ? sorry Blush

SmurfOrTerf · 06/03/2018 08:01

if you want to make an impact I'd be putting including the names of the people who have written to you.
Its easy to come out with this stuff if you know girls play nice and won't name them

Name
Shame
and Tweet

Badgerthebodger · 06/03/2018 07:56

I’m following this with growing horror. I’m nothing to do with GG except that I used to be a Guide - it was a much needed female only space that brought the best out in everyone. We had a wonderful leader who taught me that my voice was important. I will support any crowdfunder or challenge in any way I can.

SemaMjinga · 06/03/2018 06:46

And, when i wouldnt let it lie....

Dear Xxxxxxx,

Following my email to you on 15 February, I have now spoken to the relevant teams and in a position to provide you with our reply:

You are correct in that we had a telephone conversation with Xxxc xxxxxx at the NSPCC, about the safeguarding and welfare of all our young members, our Equality and Diversity policy and more specifically supporting our transgender members. The conversation was undertaken as an informal sharing of knowledge and not a formal meeting so we are unable to share any notes from that discussion, as none were taken on our part.

We are confident that those representatives from the NSPCC consider our inclusion of transgender young people in our activities does not place any child at a disadvantage or pose a safeguarding risk to those young members directly or any other children within Girlguiding.

We have in previous communications signposted you to the resources and guidance that we have online around inclusion and transgender members specifically, and would also add that we are regularly contacted by leaders and volunteers about ensuring that all young people are able to access guiding. And we respond to those requests for support and advice on a case by case basis, and will always work to ensure that all young people are welcomed, supported and given equal access to the amazing activities that we offer.

With regards to the scenario about your daughter that you presented, we advise and support leaders in any circumstance where a young person wishes or requires alternative sleeping arrangements to meet those needs on a case by case basis. There may be a number of situations where a young person wishes or requires alternative accommodation. This would be the same for any young person, for example: if there is a young member who requires assistance in the night, on the basis of faith or culture, or perhaps is not comfortable in groups or shared accommodation situations. We support leaders in these and other situations to ensure that the needs of all the young people are met so that they can take part in guiding activities equally.

With regards to your question about DBS checks and autogynephilia, you are correct that all leaders and a number of other volunteer roles require a DBS check. You are also correct regarding screening for autogynephilia, as this is not a criminal offence it would not be something that a DBS check would search for or indicate.

We do not ask any volunteer or young member to disclose their sexuality, sexual orientation or preferences when joining Girlguiding, and would therefore also not ask for disclosure of autogynephilia.

Thank you again for your emails.

Kind regards,
Xxxx

Xxxx Xxxxxx

Information, Enquiries & Complaints Manager

SemaMjinga · 06/03/2018 06:39

This was a 2nd email i had from GGHQ, when i responded that GG had always geen a single SEX organisation and THIS policy changed that to single gender;

Dear Xxxxxx

Thank you for your email.

The Equality and Diversity policy is a clarification of our equality and diversity practices. This is not a change in how we run as an organisation, but a written clarification to ensure consistency across the organisation.

Girlguiding complies with the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 which makes clear that organisations providing single-sex services such as Girlguiding should treat people according to their acquired gender. As such, and in line with our values of inclusion, we welcome any young person who self-identifies as a girl or young woman.

Subject to Girlguiding’s recruitment processes, any adult is able to undertake a volunteer role relevant to the gender that they identify as.

All of our guidance and supporting information can be found on the inclusion pages of our website.

Best wishes

Xxxxxx Xxxxxxx

Head of Membership Recruitment and Retention

TerfyOwl · 06/03/2018 06:09

Wait up datun- Millwall caved?

drspouse · 06/03/2018 01:53

Can't sleep now!
Ok, I'm happy to tell parents the law and that GG is ignoring it.
And share my risk assessments with them.

Datun · 06/03/2018 01:18

What worries me is that in a complete implosion of spinelessness, the girl guides will announce they are now unisex and are taking boys.

But then, the next question will still be about sleeping accommodation. Because the same guidelines will apply.

To a pp - As far as I know a GRC is irrelevant here.

This policy is covered under the equality law. Which says as soon as someone decides to transition (which can be just telling a friend), then they are to be treated as their preferred sex from there on in.

But, as I mentioned, there are exemptions. And they could be invoked. I have zero doubt that Girl Guides are under tremendous pressure from trans-lobby groups.

I mean if they can get Millwall FC to cave, what chance to the guides have?

GrimDamnFanjo · 06/03/2018 01:03

Amanda Medler is young for a chief Guide (early 50s). She was a senior volunteer when I worked there. She is very experienced at all levels. I'd hope she would be approachable. Perhaps a lot of letters might get things moving?

Bouledeneige · 06/03/2018 00:58

The reality is that letters to trustees will be answered by the CHief Execs office. But if you write to all of the trustees it will mean they raise it at the Board and may become concerned - especially if you mention the petition and reporting it to the Charity Commission re safeguarding. They will be aware of their fundamental legal responsibilities and concerned about protecting the good name of the charity. Also worth considering writing to the advisory council.

LineysInTheSnow · 06/03/2018 00:57

The Royal Charter of the GG UK clearly says the organisation is for girls and young women. As no boy can have a GRC, how are they girls prior to any change in the law?

freshstart24 · 06/03/2018 00:57

Agnesbadenp yes you have interpreted the guidance correctly- in so far as the person coupe choose to share a tent with whichever gender they identify with. However, the guidance also states that sleeping arrangements must be carefully planned, taking into account ages, needs of all parties and risks. It also states that the key principal is that all parties must be comfortable with the arrangements.

The guidance also states that wherever possible accommodation with separate changing and toilet cubicles and facilities should be used, ideally with such facilities being unisex.

As a leader I can see how incredibly complicated this all is. Personally I feel in the case of scouts which is a mixed sex organisation we can manage the situation through common sense, sensitivity and risk assessment.

My team would undoubtedly plan camps around providing a safe experience for all concerned should we have a trans member. Our current camp sites would honestly not make this easy- so we would find new ones to make it work.

Aftershock15 · 06/03/2018 00:54

They aren’t even consistent in their message. I’ve just looked online at the policy pages. Here the policy states Girlguiding is a single-sex organisation and that the policies must be followed. So they haven’t swapped from sex to gender and are not following their own policies.

I would also donate to a crowd fund to legally challenge this. It puts leaders in a terrible situation.

iheartmichellemallon · 06/03/2018 00:50

I fully support you Op (although I'm not a member of GGA & have sons rather than daughters so not sure I'm much use, but I'd support a crowdfunding campaign).

AgnesBadenPowell · 06/03/2018 00:49

Amanda Medler is the new chief guide (most senior volunteer), she started her five year term last week. I'd take a meeting with her or any board members - it's just that reaching them is hard.

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Bouledeneige · 06/03/2018 00:42

The chief Guide is not the Chair there is an interim chair called Val Elliott. Both come from private sector backgrounds.

AgnesBadenPowell · 06/03/2018 00:41

@GrimDamnFanjo that's interesting. Had a quick skim (must go to bed soon!) and note the references to what is best for all families and Girl Scouts in terms of their wellbeing and safety.

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OlennasWimple · 06/03/2018 00:40

I've not got any connection to GG, but I'd happily donate to a crowdfunder to test the legalities of their approach.

The bit that has pushed me over the edge is the line about girls can choose not to join if they don't like the policy Angry Angry

Elletorro · 06/03/2018 00:39

I think the Equality and human rights commission could be interested. They can intervene without the need for legal proceedings commencing.

Will give them a ring tomorrow

AgnesBadenPowell · 06/03/2018 00:37

@freshstart24 thanks for the clarification, really useful. I was looking at this when I did my research: members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

I think Scouts do handle mixed sex residentials well. However, if there was a camp with separate tents for boys and girls, my understanding is a transgirl (born Male) could chose to use the girls tent. And my interpretation of the guidance in the link is that the suitability and risk assessments are performed in relation to the transgirl's comfort and safety. There's no reference to the rest of the group. If I've misunderstood then please do let me know, I want to be well informed.

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GrimDamnFanjo · 06/03/2018 00:35

www.girlscouts.org/en/faq/faq/social-issues.html a girls Scouts USA info...

GrimDamnFanjo · 06/03/2018 00:31

@AgnesBadenPowell I'm just so shocked and angry about this.

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