Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

elle i also contacted my local safeguarding board. I will see if i can find their response...its in the same vein though

Whaaaat?
Are they genuinely thick?
Gender might be nuanced but sex isn't.
Opposite-sex children should be in different tents to avoid the risk of opposite-sex experimentation producing pregnancy.

Whether it's a boy plus girl, boy plus transboy, or transgirl plus girl, a pregnancy cannot happen to the biologically male child and could happen to the female child.

They MUST know this. There is no reason for segregating by gender instead of sex. (I wonder if the NSPCC thinks the 'trans female child' is actually female in that reply?)

Hi Dr Spouse

I’ve had a little look and I think you are probably regulated by your local authorities safeguarding board.

I suggest calling them and getting contact details for a particular individual to email. I can help draft the email if you like.

I would also ask them who they hold responsible because when social workers get it wrong they are held liable together with their employer. I’m not sure being a volunteer would be any protection from that. Not my area though so I admit I’m speculating

Hi Sema

I’m shocked that it has taken them so long.

Did they say when the meeting is and when you can expect a response?

print all your emails and the replies and put them in date order. Let’s get our ducks in a row.

If the board doesn’t make a decision/ fails to consider your points then I’d like to help put a case together.

Elle thankfully the buck does not stop with us - as we are volunteers -
unless we have acted illegally/outside guidelines.
If we follow guidelines then it's up to our District Commissioner, then Division, County etc.
So for example if a girl discloses to me that she's being abused, I say "thank you for telling me, I'm listening, I can't promise not to tell anyone" and I don't investigate, I tell my DC. She passes it on upwards.
If I allow a parent helper to be one-to-one with a child (even their own child) and an accusation is made, I imagine I'd be disciplined at the very least. That is against guidelines.

And how they responded;

Dear Xxxxxc

Thank you for your quick response. I have taken some time to look through your questions and answered them to the best of my ability below.

In terms of overnight accommodation gender segregated facilities which are inclusive of trans females would not be considered a child protection or safeguarding concern. It would be compliant with the law for GGA to facilitate access for trans children to facilitates appropriate to their gender. If GGA was non-compliant with the law and/or refused a child access they would be breaking the Sex Discrimination Regulations, 1999.

All children do have the right to feel safe from harm. However it is not clear that the presence of a trans female child in facilities appropriate to their gender in any way contribute to a safeguarding concern. Asking a child who identifies with a specific gender to use separate facilities and/or banning them from using facilities designed for their gender would be again considered breaking the above legislation.

The division of space based on gender is something with the GGA decide upon and it is not for the NSPCC to comment on this. The definition of a female is much more nuanced than the definition you have given. Many individuals have different opinions on how words are defined and again it is not up to the NSPCC to make comment on this. Thank you for providing us with links to speakers. There are very many different types of trans individuals and gender is very much a spectrum. The individuals you have identified demonstrate the diversity of gender. Again it is not up to NSPCC to make comment on the gender identity or gender expression of any individual.

Trust and transparency with parents is important when it comes to running any service, charitable or otherwise. However the NSPCC do not consider the disclosure of an individual’s gender history a necessary discussion to be had with parents, nor an ethical or legal one.

Should you continue to have concerns regarding the GGA’s decision making surrounding the inclusion of trans females then you have the right to decide whether you would like your daughter to remain part of the Rainbow troupe. This is a decision you can make as a parent.

Thank you for your email correspondence. However as we have made our stance on this matter clear in this and the previous email we will no longer be engaging with you on this subject matter. Should you have any child protection concerns please do feel free to contact us on 0808 800 5000 or email [email protected]

Kind regards,

Xxxxx Xxxxxxxx

Assistant Team Manager

NSPCC

The definition of gender-reassignment given by the EA10 7(1) is;
'A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex, by changing physiological or other attributes of sex'

That's very interesting. I must have read it a 100 times before, but it's only just occurred to me that 'attributes of sex' cannot be clothing, etc.

The way adults get around it is by saying they are in the process of changing. Which could, effectively last for years - whilst they do nothing.

But a child can't? Because that process isn't lawful if you are under age?

This is what i asked, after NSPCC first response;

Xxxxxx
Thanks for your reply regarding the new Girl Guiding Trans policy and safeguarding. Unfortunately, it does nothing to alleviate my concerns at all. I have further questions.

In my experience and opinion sex-segregation for overnight trips with children under 18, is universal and important. Similarly, same sex chaperones are essential for overnight trips with children under the age of 18.

1.  Would you please confirm that NSPCC consider these important safe guarding issues, or not, as the case may be?
   

As a girl and a woman I have always felt that sex segregation is essential for the following reasons;

· For privacy and dignity, for example in changing rooms and on hospital wards. To be amongst people with the same anatomy and physiology. From the age of 8 or 9 girls begin to grow breasts and pubic hairs and lay down body fat, they usually become self-conscious. Some will begin to bleed at this age. Boys are inquisitive to see how girls bodies are different and in a few more years start to become sexual aroused if they are heterosexual. It can be excruciating to be exposed to the ‘male gaze’ and most girls past this age will not want to share intimate accommodation or facilities with boys. Part of keeping girls and young women safe is to teach them about body autonomy and setting and maintaining healthy boundaries. We also teach them to trust their instinct by respecting them.

· For the purpose of safety; because, whilst sleeping or in a state of undress, a girl or women is vulnerable to male (sexual) violence, which is commonplace, and can occur in the form of ‘pranks’ amongst children.

2.  Regarding your answer 2a, where you state that all children have the right to feel safe from harm.  Does it matter to the NSPCC if the inclusion of a male child who identifies as female, makes female children NOT feel safe? Also,
   

3.  How would providing separate accommodation based on the childs sex, make them feel ‘unsafe’/at risk of harm?
   

As a mother of daughters I expect a same sex chaperone for overnight trips, so that they have someone they would feel comfortable approaching for help, if they need it. Young girls from around age 10 will be learning how to deal with the onset of menstruation. They may have a first period whilst away with a group. They may need to ask for sanitary protection. Their period may flood their clothes and bedding, they may have debilitating cramps and sickness, they may get a tampon stuck in their vagina, they may get cystitis, some girls may have been circumcised. I want them to have a chaperone that will have some understanding of the issues that they might be experiencing.

4.  What do the NSPCC consider to be the reason(s) for sex-segregation and same sex chaperones, to be an important part of safe-guarding?
   

I have never felt the need to seek gender-segregated spaces or facilities. A persons inner belief about their gender is of no consequence to the privacy, dignity or safety of girls. Females do not commonly have an ‘inner sense of being a girl or woman’, that is an experience that appears to be shared by trans-individuals. Women and girls do not need spaces segregated according to preferences for long hair, frocks, dolls, baking, a dislike of sports and ‘rough play’ or any other sex-based stereotype. How feminine a person feels is an aspect of their personality. I cannot see any logical or useful reason for having segregation based on femininity or gender-identity. It would infact exclude many females, myself included.

5.  What do the NSPCC consider to be the rational for gender-segregation?
   

It is interesting that you think a person is female if they identify as female. A female is; ‘of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes’. Humans are sexually dimorphic and it is not possible for humans to change sex.

6.  Do the NSPCC believe in biology and material reality?
   

7.  Do the NSPCC think that trans-gender people can change material reality with the power of their mind?
   

I am providing some examples of people who identify as women to illustrate the reality of self-identification. I have included a short profile for each of them, to demonstrate that these examples are a true representation of men who identify as women and have that self-identity respected and upheld by society;

Danielle Muscato

Civil Rights Activist, Writer, Debater, Public Speaker, Musician, Trans-Women

Currently residing in a shelter for homeless women, I believe

www.facebook.com/daniellemuscato.page/?fref=ts

Alex Drummond

Psychotherapist and mental health counsellor.

Thinks he is widening the bandwidth of how to be a woman….by fixing cars and getting his hands dirty

Stephonknee Wolscht

Left his wife of 23 years and 7 kids, to live his authentic life as a 6-year-old girl, with his adoptive parents, at age 43.

He was then employed by The 519 Community Centre as a Trans Consultant, and as such advised the Canadian Government

He was named and thanked by MPP Cheri DiNovo, in getting Bill C-389 ‘Tobys Act’ passed in 2012. This Bill makes same-sex gatherings illegal, in Ontario

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/transgender-father-stefonknee-wolscht-who-left-family-to-be-a-six-year-old-girl-uses-childs-play-to-a6775051.html

Anna Lee

former NUS Women’s Campaign Committee (trans rep),

Ran for NUS National WOMENS Officer 2016

Took a place on Lancaster University women’s basketball team, as an ‘act of defiance against the ‘massively gendered rules’

www.facebook.com/Anna.Charlotte.Lee

www.facebook.com/Anna4WO/?fref=ts

These people are not women, they are all privileged white males. In the example of Stephonknee Wolscht, this individual identifies as a 6-year-old girl.

8.  Do the NSPCC think that Stephonknee Wolscht’s age-identity should be accepted in the same way we are expected to accept his gender-identity?  As a self-identified 6-year-old girl, do you think the Girlguiding Association should let him join Rainbows?  If not, why not?
   

And, finally;

9.  Do the NSPCC consider honesty and transparency with parents to be important for safeguarding of children? 
   

I look forward to your reply

Regards
Xxxccx

elle....i first emailed in january 2017. Its been more than a year. Latest email saying it will be discussed at the meeting was yesterday, though

Well, i asked that lemon very explicitly...i will post my email below and how they responded (before i took it to the board and trustees)...

Sema and dr spouse

It really sounds like you are frustrated but you will be having an impact.

If the NSPCC are getting proper advice on this now then it will take time to turn that around. It’s untested law and is probably going to mean getting expert opinions. That isn’t fast - it might take 6 weeks. When is the next policy meeting? I’d be asking for a date of their decision and to be provided with a copy of the report. That will be the point to see if the Equality and Human Rights Commission can intervene.

I’m wondering whether there is an indirect sex discrimination claim brewing if they implement a policy which disproportionately impacts on girls.

Dr Spouse I’m sorry if I’m stepping on your toes. I used to be a guide but I don’t know how safeguarding works. Surely the buck stops with individuals at each unit? Who is liable?

Maybe if you can work out where responsibility lies for safeguarding failures (so divorce it from this particular issue) then those people need to realise that they are personally liable?

This is an extract from the first email i sent to tbe NSPCC Executive Board and Trustees, which explains why i think the Equalities Act DOESNT mean they have to include trans members or leaders, who are male...;

he EA10 has, as protected characteristics; age, sex, gender-reassignments, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, disability, religion and belief, sexual orientation.

The EA10 protects (those with a protected status) from discrimination, harassment and victimisation, which disadvantages that person on the grounds that the person has the protected characteristics

The definition of gender-reassignment given by the EA10 7(1) is;
'A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex, by changing physiological or other attributes of sex'

Therefore, even with the correct Legislation identified, it is not applicable for the following reasons;

1. it is not legal in the UK to prescribe puberty blockers, cross sex hormones or preform cosmetic surgery, to under 16s as a treatment for gender metaphor is. Children cannot comply with the definition of 'gender reassignment'. Given that 90% of children grow out of gender dysphoria by adolescence, it would be unethical to seek to do so.

2). GENDER IDENTITY is not a protected characteristic, as has been stated by the GGA and the NSPCC

3). In any case, exclusion from a single-sex group, sleeping accommodation or facilities is not 'harassment' or 'victimisation'

4. it maybe argued that it coinstitutes 'discrimination'; but the possible discrimination would not be on the basis of gender, but because of biology. Males have been excluded from the GGA for over a hundred years.

5. the exclusion would not disadvantage an individual, as there are many uni-sex activity groups available and the individual can access male sleeping accommodation and facilities

I also think that this trans-policy contravenes the EA2010 protection of a person for their religion or belief. The GGA has for the last 100 years been a single-sex group. It is still, commonly presumed to be a female only group. There are religious and cultural groups within the UK which do not allow girls to attend groups with boys, particularly overnight trips. Policy which states that group members and leaders may or may not be male, but parents will not be informed, IS going to be a barrier to girls participation. Your representative agreed with this interpretation; but went on to say that if a person believes that they are female, then they are. Hence,there would be no males present. Biology is a material reality and cannot be changed by belief. I have provided a number of examples to highlight how unacceptable self-identity is. To re-iterate gender-identity has never been the basis of segregation. There are no safe guarding concerns regarding keeping separate people with different gender-identities. It is the differences in anatomy and physiology that are relevant here.

The EA20 protects the rights of women to maintain female only environments.

I’m just posting to add my encouragement. I chose not to move my daughters from brownies to guides when they reached 10 because of this policy. My only regret is that I didn’t tell the guide leader this was the reason.

Sema
There is no GENDER as a protected characteristic. They are legally a single SEX organisation.

Why would you offer to pay for GG seeking legal advice? It is a long-established organisation. It has solicitors. It has funding. It is not lack of funds that has stopped them seeking a legal view on this matter. It's a desire to submit to current political pressure; to pre-empt the law change regarding self-id and probably, to access funds that are dependent on having a trans-inclusive policy.

*sex not Dec

I have pushed and pushed for their (NSPCC) moral/safeguarding of girls stance, but they doubled down on 'there is no safeguarding concern' and wouldnt address my specific points

What are their specific policies on safeguarding when boys and girls are involved (ie no mention of trans) wrt changing, room sharing etc? For example I think it was mentioned that opposite Dec children shouldn’t share a room over a certain age. What is their own reasoning behind this? Why exactly do they think these children shouldnt share?

These are the parts of the Equalities Act 2010 which the GG could very eadily use to keep the GG female only.......

I have also emailed the Childrens Commissioner and the Minister for Children and Families....nothing. Brick walls everywhere. No one in a position of responsibility for children who can exert influence, will even engage with the consequences of trans-rights on dafeguarding of girls. Its a loud clear message that no one gives a shit

elle i have emailed all those people at the NSPCC. Waiting for Peter Wanless to get back to me...he said it would be discussed at the next policy committee of trustees. So that will be their analysis of the law, i expect.

I have pushed and pushed for their (NSPCC) moral/safeguarding of girls stance, but they doubled down on 'there is no safeguarding concern' and wouldnt address my specific points

Elle it is very easy for you to say that but anything we bring up locally is just referred upwards and GG just repeat what it says on their website.

Hi Dr Spouse

GG needs to get proper legal advice which takes into account safeguarding responsibilities. Who is responsible if there is a safeguarding failure? Put pressure on your local contact.

Other leaders must have the same concerns. You need to be putting pressure on your safeguarding leads internally If you don’t get a good enough response then escalate to the next level.

If there is pressure from inside and from parents you will get somewhere

As TerfyOwl posted, my concerns are not around pregnancy.
We already have good policies around sex on camp (gay and straight) and the backing of GG where a girl comes to us and says she is about to have sex (remember we've been going on mixed large scale camps for years now).
We also have a good one-to-one policy (no girl and leader to be alone one-to-one) but I'm not massively keen on having to police it any more than I do.
My concerns are around:
a girl telling us they are transgender but that we can't tell their parents, which seems to be included in the policy.
ditto but the girl telling us they want to/are taking puberty blocking drugs.
and members (including adults) choosing who they get changed with and share a room with on a residential.
Remember we already have male helpers, who can come on residentials/help at swimming etc. But we segregate them as a matter of policy (in principle my 4yo son should not have slept with me so I put him in a different pod in my tent, and regulations said that he wasn't allowed to share our toilets either - he had the choice of the big boys' toilets when we stayed at a Scout camp, or the mens' and he chose the mens')

With regards to 2 pronged approach to getting the guides to reconsider policy:

I would set out your preferred option invoking the Equality act exemption.

Explain your concerns with regards to safeguarding and inclusion of religious groups and girls recovering/ subject to male violence plus your other reasoning.

Set out consequences of what could happen if safeguarding not addressed. Ie self exclusion and at worst case abuse.

Request that the guides take independent legal advice. Offer to fund raise to pay for it on proviso you choose from their selection of solicitors who to instruct.

Send letter to every district division and all trustees.

If you can organise it get parents in each unit to sign.

I think grassroots is the way to go

It's been a few years since I've been involved in Guiding but is the Countess of Wessex still the patron? I wonder if it would be worth writing to her.
Not because she can get involved in the discussion - her Royal status limits how political she can be.
But because it can be mentioned in letters to CHQ and SHQ that she has been contacted. It will be embarrassing to Guiding if, at any level, this absolute mess is brought to the attention of the Royal Family.
Plus, when I was involved in Guiding, there was a network from the Royal Family down through Lord Lieutenants and their families, etc that is actually very active in Guiding circles. It could potentially bring the disquiet around this decision to that very influential network.