Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?
  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.
  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.
  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
SnibbleAgain · 07/03/2018 12:42

"As Girlguiding is an organisation for all girls and young women, gender is a very relevant topic for
us. We hope that young members will feel safe and comfortable within our girl-only space to discuss
issues that are important to them. This may include a wider discussion about gender identity and
what makes them girls and young women. "

Biology is a big fat NO when disucssing what makes girls and women girls and women.

What do they do if a girl mentions menstruation or babies?

Send them off for re-education?

SnibbleAgain · 07/03/2018 12:40

Did anyone post this longer GG trans guidance?

It's mind boggling. Any girl who is confused about gender or starts to identify as male must be managed out.

There is this piece as well:

"What should I do if a young member tells me that they are being targeted by transphobic bullying outside guiding?
A young member may be targeted by transphobic bullying for a number of reasons, including:

they do not fit with traditional gender stereotypes..."

So bullying which is sexist in nature or homophobic is now reframed as transphobic.

No wonder they are the most victimy victims ever.

CakeOfThePan · 07/03/2018 12:36

It's true, that any man, could be predatory, in one form or another.
Or woman
Or girl
Or boy

Datun · 07/03/2018 12:31

Maybe I've just got a suspicious mind, but no one ever seems to talk about AGP in relation to this hoo ha.

This troubles me.

Middle aged men with AGP make up a significant cohort of transwomen.

And are far more likely to demand the kind of validation that infiltrating female only spaces provide.

No one can tell the difference between a gender dysphoric male and a male with AGP.

And the girl guides will be unwittingly participating in the fetish.

It's true, that any man, could be predatory, in one form or another.

But it seems crazy to knowingly choose a leader/supporter from a cohort that officially includes a fetish. Particularly a fetish that relies on seeing females as weak, compliant victims.

In the bloody girl guides!

AgnesBadenPowell · 07/03/2018 12:30

@OldCrone I agree with you and have also raised this point with GGUK. I specifically asked that as GG has historically been a single sex organisation, then the guidance be changed to allow for a girl undergoing transition to stay, with no pressure or expectation to leave until when/if they are ready. I cited reasons of friendship and support as well the sex issue.

The reply from GGHQ was that GG has always been a single gender organisation. This refers to the inner sense of being a girl (!) and is different from biological sex. They are lying. GG has been single sex and in their own constitution they say they are single sex members only organisation to comply with the EA. Someone else explained this much more clearly upthread.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 07/03/2018 12:30

Sema
That reply from the NSPCC - Thank you for providing us with links to speakers.
Did they really think you were recommending the likes of Stephonknee and Muscato as speakers?

drspouse · 07/03/2018 12:28

elle I don't think local authorities have any jurisdiction over us.
I would expect to be backed if a male volunteer or a Scout on a joint camp abused a girl in my care. Just as a teacher would if they followed regulations, or if a girl pressurised another girl into a sexual relationship.
If I'd told a girl she could sleep in the Scout tent, or allowed the male helper to be 1:1 with a girl I'd be in trouble.
I wouldn't be able to take a hypothetical situation to my DC as they'd just refer me to regulations.

OldCrone · 07/03/2018 12:23

My understanding is that females (girls) who identify as boys are not welcome in the GG as it's a single 'gender' organisation so they would have to leave.

From here
www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/
If a child or young person self-identifies as a girl or young woman then they are able to join any of our youth sections appropriate to their age.
We understand that if a young member is transitioning from female to male that they will be experiencing a great amount of change and uncertainty. Flexibility and the Leaders’ discretion in conversation with the parents must be used to determine how long the child stays within the unit.

So from this it looks as though a boy who 'identifies' as a girl is welcome, but a girl who thinks she's a boy will be asked to leave. A girl who is experiencing change and uncertainty requires support, not exclusion. How on earth can this be described as an organisation for girls?

SemaMjinga · 07/03/2018 12:23

elle is it the Government Equalities Office (GEO) that you think would be interested in this?? The email i sent to the Childrens Vommissioner got forwarded to them. THIS is GEO response;

Dear Xxxxxx Xxxxxxxc,

Thank you for your recent e-mail addressed to Anne Longfield and Robert Goodwill. Given the nature of the concerns you raised, your correspondence has been passed to the Government Equalities Office (GEO) for a response. I am replying on behalf of the GEO.

Firstly, I would like to thank you for taking the time to set out your views on this matter so comprehensively. The GEO appreciates hearing from members of the public and considers seriously all the issues and concerns that are raised in correspondence. It is not possible, however, for us to comment specifically on a number of the concerns that you detailed in your e-mail.

The Girl Guiding Association (GGA) sets its own policies. The GEO is not in a position to judge whether or not an organisation’s policies breach the Equality Act 2010. It is for individual organisations to ensure they are compliant with the provisions of the Act and for the Courts to rule on any breach. The Equality Act allows for the provision of single-sex services, such as overnight accommodation, and allows for the exclusion of transgender individuals from these services if doing so is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim.

The GEO encourages all organisations to be trans inclusive, and has previously published guidance for organisations on the provision of single-sex or communal facilities for trans individuals, which can be read at the following web-page: www.gov.uk/government/publications/providing-services-for-transgender-customers-a-guide#_blank.

As part of the Government’s forthcoming consultation on updating the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA), we will be making no changes to the single-sex provisions of the Equality Act.

Yours sincerely,

Xxxxxx Xxxxxxxxx

Government Equalities Office

Winewinewinegin · 07/03/2018 12:22

I think trans children of both biological sex need to be considered in the safeguarding. I think it is not reasonable to put parents in a position where their children may share sleeping quarters with someone of the opposite biological sex, without the parents knowledge or consent. I think it is unreasonable to put children in the position where they cannot choose not to share sleeping quarters or other normally sex segregated spaces with members of the opposite biological sex. Changing pronouns does not change this.

AgnesBadenPowell · 07/03/2018 12:21

@GirlScout72 I have also have serious concerns about Gendered Intelligence. For a small, single issue pressure group, they're reach is enormous. They go in to schools, have connections with government policy makers...women's groups can't get a word in.

I did a bit of digging on GI when I found out they were behind the GG policy.

The CEO of GI is also a member of the National Offender Management Service Transgender Advisory Board. The Board provides advice to inform policy and establish best practice relating to the treatment and care of transgender and non-binary offenders in prison custody or under the supervision of the probation services.

It's confirmed in the GI annual report which you can find online. As is there annual funding of approx £185,000 from Children in Need

OP posts:
Elletorro · 07/03/2018 12:13

Dr Spouse

Would you mind contacting your local authority safe guarding board stating your concerns and asking for guidance as to whether the policy meets their standards.

I’m wondering if you will get a different response from Sema as you are a practitioner.

AgnesBadenPowell · 07/03/2018 12:10

As an example of the censorship within GGUK at the moment:

There is a UK wide Facebook page for leaders, has about 9,500 members. It's a closed group so none outside can see posts. Someone posted the link to the Victoria Derbyshire clip from Monday, asked if any one had seen it, what did they think etc.

An admin replied with a link to GGUK policy then switched off comments. NO DEBATE!

OP posts:
GirlScout72 · 07/03/2018 12:09

drspouse

You said:
My concerns are around:
a girl telling us they are transgender but that we can't tell their parents, which seems to be included in the policy.
ditto but the girl telling us they want to/are taking puberty blocking drugs.

My understanding is that females (girls) who identify as boys are not welcome in the GG as it's a single 'gender' organisation so they would have to leave.

GirlScout72 · 07/03/2018 12:05

Gendered Intelligence and Mermaids have trained the NSPCC. Gendered Intelligence have also had influence on the guidelines used by the Government Equalities Office (so the guidance the equalities minister would refer to I think).

Mermaids are also working with childline (NSPCC) to refer kids calling about gender confusion onwards.

The thing I don't think people have yet grasped is that the trans lobby is mainly spearheaded by adult males who never had dysphoria as children, and as in common with 90% of adult transwomen, don't have dysphoria as adults either. Which begs the question, why are they so interested in other people's children? I mean, they say that trans is not a mental illness, and no transition is necessary, but seem mighty keen on pushing kids down a medical pathway that keeps them in a perpetual state of paused puberty (switching off male puberty and adding exogenous hormones of opp sex is NOT a puberty btw).

Maybe I've just got a suspicious mind, but no one ever seems to talk about AGP in relation to this hoo ha.

AgnesBadenPowell · 07/03/2018 12:04

Thanks everyone for your contributions to this thread. I am working so just sipping in when I can. It's such a relief to see that so many others share my concerns. And horrifying to see just how complacent organisations like GGUK and NSPCC are being.

What strikes me is that when I joined GGUK I had to have a DBS and references. I, or any other volunteer, am highly unlikely to be a predator. We undertake these processes as a way of managing risk and I'm certainly not offended by it. I don't assume that because I'm asked to do this, people think I'm an abuser. But there are abusers out there and as the impact of abuse is catastrophic, it's a reasonable precaution.

I don't understand why GG assume that teen TIMs and girls in same tent won't at some point end up in sex (that may or may not be consensual). Are all TIMs gay? Is that what GG are implying? I don't think every man/boy/TIM is a sex offender, not by any means, but they do exist and we need to acknowledge that risk, however small.

This whole thing is such a mess. I'm so sad that one of the last safe, all female spaces has gone. Girls have been told that their privacy, dignity and rights to assert their own boundaries don't matter, that they must make way for boys and men at every turn. They have to deal with this shit at school and now in GG and I assume most other youth orgs.

But there is some hope - there are gender critical guiders out there and we are fighting this. I'm pressing on with my letter writing campaign. The legal stuff is complicated and will take time to get off the ground. Having concerns isn't enough - I need watertight legal arguments.

I'm also fucking furious that GG has been so dismissive of me so far. As well as meetings each week there's all the time spent on admin, answering queries, weekends given up for training and trips. I am worth more than a template email response that doesn't even pretend to answer my questions.

OP posts:
HaruNoSakura · 07/03/2018 11:51

@Datun

A key part is (as per EA2010 s7):

(1) A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo. . .a process (or part of a process)

Proposing to undergo - comes into effect as soon as a person decides to undergo reassignment.

Process (or part of a process) - the process does not necessarily have to be medical. Process in these cases could also take into account any process undertaken, or being sought be taken, socially.

CakeOfThePan · 07/03/2018 11:49

I don't think you are helping the argument concentrating on things like pregnancy. Scouts, schools and other groups mitigate and safeguard against that up and down the country. Regardless of genders and sex abuse happens between the same sex and genders as well as the opposite so again the safeguarding should be in place to prevent that between children and leaders. By also concentrating on 'bad boys and men wanting to abuse girls' i don't think your helping the argument either, as it too easily closes down discussions with the blame passed on you being trans phobic .

Girl guides as a group decided not to allow boys as a result they have no procedures in place to practically deal with allowing boys. The trans child would need safeguarding as much as the next child, they are failing the trans child as well as failing the other girl guides. They are chasing the goal posts without consulting parents or leaders. I think you would have more success with that then blaming pregnancy, and abuse.

ijustwannadance · 07/03/2018 11:47

That Stephoknee clearly states that he is escaping from reality. Therefore he knows it is not real and that he is pretending to be a 6 year old girl rather than actually being one.

So why the fuck are other people forced to pretend something that isn't real as reality?

And that response from the NSPCC is a fucking disgrace.

My DD wants to join the guides as some girls from her school go. Not a chance now.

Datun · 07/03/2018 11:46

SemaMjinga

I've just doublechecked about what 'attributes of sex' means.

The statutory code which is written by the European Court of human rights to uphold equality law does clarify that, certainly in cases of children, clothing is considered part of 'gender reassignment'.

Although, it's little wonder that they want to get the definition changed to gender identity. As this would require absolutely nothing. Meaning they can go through life irrefutably as their actual sex, whilst saying they are the opposite.

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides
Lemonjello · 07/03/2018 11:45

Sema, thanks for posting all of the correspondence.

It’s utterly rage and despair inducing. Excuse me while I go and shoot myself in the head.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/03/2018 11:42

Have you considered a shorter email that just says "does the NSPCC understand how babby is formed"? Because at this point I think there may be some confusion there.

LangCleg · 07/03/2018 11:39

I think a collective madness has overtaken all our institutions.

You can't be a responsible organisation running overnight trips for minors if you put one capable of making the other one pregnant in the same tent without supervision. It doesn't matter how either of them bloody well identify.

How can you be so thick that you cannot understand this?

SemaMjinga · 07/03/2018 11:38

This was my initial reply from the safeguarding board;;

Dear Ms Xxxxxxxx

Thank you for your query. The Bristol Safeguarding Children Board (BSCB) has considered you enquiry and has taken legal advice and advice from the equalities officers in order to provide you with a response.

The BSCB is not able to provide legal advice to members of the public. Your query states you are asking if you have a legal argument and in order to clarify this you will need to seek your own legal advice. You can do this by approaching the Law Centre or Citizens Advice Bureau.

The BSCB scrutinise about local policy issues. This appears to be national guidance.

If you have any specific safeguarding concerns about an adult working with children you can refer the matter to the Local Authority Designated Officer (LADO) who would deal with this matter.

Also I am sure you are already aware that any adults involved in regulated activity with children are required to have an enhanced police check (DBS) to ensure safeguards are in place.

In terms of an equalities perspective then there is agreement with the guidance.

A transgender girl is no more likely to be sexually predatory towards girls than any other girl. Being transgender is no indicator at all of sexual identity, sexual orientation or sexuality.

I hope this answers your query.
Yours
Xxxxx Xxxxx

It went backwards and forwards after this, but its a lot to post here

Basically, no one will give a moral\ethical\ safeguarding informed OPINION...and say that individuals have to take there own legal advice. Which is impossible. Which individuals can afford a legal challenge of the GirlGuides?!?! I was going to crowd fund for one, but couldnt find any law firm willing to take it on. I contacted around 15, i think

PositivelyPERF · 07/03/2018 11:34

I wonder what their response would be if you asked them for their reassurance that you will not be held responsible if a child is sexually harmed in your care, by a TIM? How are they going to answer that?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.