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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?
  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.
  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.
  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
PositivelyPERF · 07/03/2018 13:46

That’s going on my Facebook tomorrow SomeDyke. Nothing transphobic in that. The more people that put that on there Facebook the better.

SomeDyke · 07/03/2018 13:41

A poem from 1910 (regarding female suffrage):

The Revolt of Mother

(“Every true woman feels—-“—Speech of almost any Congressman.)

I am old-fashioned, and I think it right
That man should know, by Nature’s laws eternal,
The proper way to rule, to earn, to fight,
And exercise those functions called paternal;
But even I a little bit rebel
At finding that he knows my job as well.
At least he’s always ready to expound it,
Especially in legislative hall,
The joys, the cares, the halos that surround it,
“How women feel”—he knows that best of all.
In fact his thesis is that no one can
Know what is womanly except a man.
I am old-fashioned, and I am content
When he explains the world of art and science
And government—to him divinely sent—
I drink it in with ladylike compliance.
But cannot listen—no, I’m only human—
While he instructs me how to be a woman.

Alice Duer Miller

Given that 'the female sex' is often mentioned, I would be expecting that Agnes Baden-Powell and her contemporaries would also have talked about 'the female sex', and the intended the guides to be a single sex organisation. Debates around female suffrage, female health care, the role of women in society, suitability for public office etc, were all based around her sex. And let's face it, if gender had been used as a concept, it would probably have been used then to lambast female activists for showing behaviour deemed inappropriate for their sex (i.e. gender non-conforming females).

All of which seemingly can not be talked about in the guides ever again, whilst they are claiming they are (and always have been), a single-gender organisation..........We are (and always have been) at war with Eurasia, Winston...........(to paraphrase!).

SemaMjinga · 07/03/2018 13:34

The 'volunteers' ARE the leaders datun...so perfectly fine with GGs to have male leaders, who are sexually aroused by being part of the GGs?

Datun · 07/03/2018 13:30

CakeOfThePan

Deciding that predatory behaviour is not highly sex specific, is just obscuring the reasons for sex segregation in the first place.

Deciding that sex is determined by your brain is wilfully ignoring a) reality and b) the reason we categorise.

Now, quite unbelievably, they are saying they know the cohort who might want to work there constitutes, to a significant degree, sexual fetishists.

GirlScout72

And that reddit thread is absolutely shocking. The level of delusion is mind blowing.

And the boy said he had been feeling like this for years. He is only 16 now.

We do not ask any volunteer or young member to disclose their sexuality, sexual orientation or preferences when joining Girlguiding, and would therefore also not ask for disclosure of autogynephilia

I can't believe they are aware of this, and are disregarding it.

And what about leaders? They are talking of members there, what about the adults?

LangCleg · 07/03/2018 13:28

That Reddit thread seems to be saying that practically ALL TIMS are aroused by dressing as a woman (ie autogynaphilic)?

I think, in Western societies, most studies find the AGP population outnumbers the rest of the male trans population by about 4:1.

So pretty much, yes.

Winewinewinegin · 07/03/2018 13:26

I think there is also a cultural issue around girl only spaces that is really important and related to the very ethos of guides.

SemaMjinga · 07/03/2018 13:25

That Reddit thread seems to be saying that practically ALL TIMS are aroused by dressing as a woman (ie autogynaphilic)?

wellAsDanielleMTF 28 HRT 12/10/15 • 2y
I think it's fairly common. It probably stems from the thought that if everyone treats you like your desired gender, so will your sexual partners, which is something most humans take for granted. Unfortunately for us, we deprive ourselves of that feeling for so long that taking a half step in the right direction can set us off in that way

SnibbleAgain · 07/03/2018 13:17

"feeling like a girl' seems to be something only experienced by males?"

Yes I think so.

Thread on here a few years back, only one woman out of ?must've been a hundred or more said they had an internal feeling of femaleness.

I have questioned before - problem is that a group who by definition have a certain feeling, have extrapolated that to mean that everybody has this feeling.

Most women don't.
Maybe it's a male thing
Maybe it's just a trans thing

The idea that most people have an internal and strongly felt sense of their "gender" is rubbish, of course they aren't interested in askign large numbers of people who dont' ID as trans if these new definitions and ideas have any meaning for them at all.

And yes agree - maybe men "feel like men" on the whole, which adds a further explanation as to why women are getting nowhere with this.

CakeOfThePan · 07/03/2018 13:14

Agnes I don't think it helps the argument though to say about abuse or predators, as abuse is something that should be safeguarded against regardless of who is in the mix. Statically more men are convicted than women but that doesn't mean that no woman abuses and so the protections should be in place anyway. So it is rather a moot point.

I get that about the safe space I said in a previous post that its the goal posts moving without consultation or procedures to continue to safeguard and thats the issue.
They are failing to protect the trans child and failing to protect the girls and thats more the issue.

GirlScout72 · 07/03/2018 13:13

One more thought then I must get on with my day:

'feeling like a girl' seems to be something only experienced by males?

GirlScout72 · 07/03/2018 13:12

Tell me if this is going too far but I just took a journey into transgender Reddit, this turned up on the first google. I'm not quite sure what to say but this male is 16 years old:

"Hello everyone, I'm a 16 MtF transsexual. After years of doubt, I'm 99% sure I'm trans (I'm going to therapy). Basically, the problem is, I know I'm trans, I have dysphoria, but...for some reason, the idea of everyone seeing me as a girl turns me on, and I feel bad because I think it invalidates my transsexual identity.

So...is this "normal"? Is this a problem? Or maybe I'm not trans?"
www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/3lpwnh/i_know_im_trans_but_the_idea_of_being_treated/

BlazeAway · 07/03/2018 13:10

I notice there’s been the same swapping of sex for gender and missing out of pregnancy and maternity in that list posted a couple of pages back as I’ve been taking issue with at another organisation.

Now, I can rattle off the nine protected characteristics, but not everybody can. Or they say “but sex and gender are the same, so it doesn’t matter”.

The Law Society might be helpful? I know they’re consulting on the EA in light of Brexit.

SnibbleAgain · 07/03/2018 13:08

The fact that girls who say they don't know what their gender is / or who say they don't have a gender / or say they are boys need to be managed out is really grim.

Many many girls will be questioning given that gender role for girls is so so restrictive. GG used to understand this.

Now girls who aren't mega girly skipping arond saying "I'm a girl" are to be considred as probably (but not necessarily) trans... This includes girls who feel like people rather than girls I imagine.

I always felt like a person, how is this not good enough for GG?

SnibbleAgain · 07/03/2018 13:05

"Surely it would make more sense to have single sex and safeguarding policies and make a judgement call about what to do as an exception WHILE FOLLOWING NORMAL SAFEGUARDING in the presumably small number of instances of trans children wanting to join or take part in specific activities?"

Well you'd think so.

Instead it's all, sex is irrelevant (which is a pretty big departure for GG) , and if someone says they are a girl / woman then they literally are and therefore there are no safeguarding issues.

How can GG tackle sexism if they don't believe in sex.

Winewinewinegin · 07/03/2018 13:02

The other thing that is really wrong with all of this from a safeguarding perspective is the level of complexity these very detailed fiddly policies bring. This gives a lot of power to specialist organisations to say how that law could be interpreted, which given they do not seem to be giving accurate information in all cases, or responding favourably to any kind of scrutiny, is questionable. The organisation and volunteers need training and information from a non biased source that considers biological women's rights to be important and can be trusted.

Surely it would make more sense to have single sex and safeguarding policies and make a judgement call about what to do as an exception WHILE FOLLOWING NORMAL SAFEGUARDING in the presumably small number of instances of trans children wanting to join or take part in specific activities?

morningrunner · 07/03/2018 12:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Elletorro · 07/03/2018 12:58

Dr Spouse

You can be held legally liable for safeguarding failures as a volunteer

elderflowerlegal.co.uk/tag/safeguarding/

The local authority safeguarding children’s board is the regulatory body with responsibility for all organisations that have safeguarding responsibility

GirlScout72 · 07/03/2018 12:56

OMG Sema, they actually said that!?!?!? I am rarely lost for words, but flippin' heck!

Do they know what Autogynephilia actually is? If you read the diagnostic criteria, it's pretty creepy (see attached)

I thought that 90% of TiMs were not dypshoric, and that only 10% were non AGP? Sure I've read that in Miranda Yardley's writings, that homosexual transsexuals are typically not AGP (there is some overlap, Paris Lees being one I'm fairly certain, India Willoughby another!)?

Horrifying about Gendered Intelligence and the advisory board for management of trans prisoners, given what we now know about the profile of 50% of trans prisoners, Dr W did a really good report on it that I think was picked up by the Times.

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides
SnibbleAgain · 07/03/2018 12:55

What do the GG have to do with the local authority?

AgnesBadenPowell · 07/03/2018 12:54

@CakeOfThePan this isn't about guiders viewing all men as predators. They are not.

But, there are far more Male sex offenders than female. Just look at the prison stats. Over 12,000 men compared to a couple of hundred women.

But that's not the only issue. This is the erasure of girls only spaces. Defining womanhood/girlhood by the very same stereotypes that GG say they are fighting against and acknowledge in their own research are harmful to girls.

Many organisations have successful mixed sex meetings and camps. But they acknowledge the risks and seek to mitigate them eg by segregating sleeping and washing/toilet facilities by sex or by careful management - a PP gave an example of a girl sharing a tent with boys she knew and trusted in camp as that was preferable to her being alone in a tent at night. If parents and children are informed and consent, there's no issue.

But GG WONT inform parents. It doesn't give girls a choice. They can't consent.

OP posts:
Elletorro · 07/03/2018 12:53

Dr Spouse

I just called my local authority and they say that there is a designated officer for exactly your concerns. You can call them.

I would pinpoint the safeguarding issues that you think are falling through the cracks.

Dustysparrow · 07/03/2018 12:52

Cakeofthepan - I just did a quick google and could only find statistics for Australia, so yes while it is possible that women, boys or girls could also be predatory the actual reality is that "98% of sexual assaults are committed by men" - this is why people are worried.

SnibbleAgain · 07/03/2018 12:46

"Please note: if a child is enjoying activities or expressing themselves in a way that is stereotypically
associated with a gender different to their assigned gender, for example a girl liking rugby, this does
not necessarily mean that they are identifying as a different gender or that they are trans."

Not necessarily

SemaMjinga · 07/03/2018 12:45

datun the GGs arent UNWITTINGLY participating the children in autogynaphilia. It is thought that more than 50% of adult men who transition have autogynaphilia. Therefore with a TKM leader there is a 50/50 chance that he has autogynaphilia. I asked the GG how they would screen for his, given that sexual fetishes arent illegal and wont be picked up by DBS.

This is their response;

With regards to your question about DBS checks and autogynephilia, you are correct that all leaders and a number of other volunteer roles require a DBS check. You are also correct regarding screening for autogynephilia, as this is not a criminal offence it would not be something that a DBS check would search for or indicate

We do not ask any volunteer or young member to disclose their sexuality, sexual orientation or preferences when joining Girlguiding, and would therefore also not ask for disclosure of autogynephilia

I am pretty sure that they wouldnt be allowing leaders to display any other sexual fetish whilst working with children though. Are you allowed to wear gimp suits to meetings?

SnibbleAgain · 07/03/2018 12:44

THEIR LGBT GUIDANCE PAGES HAVE NO INFO ON THE L OR THE G AND LOADS ON THE T

HERE

Sorry for shouting but I find that genuinly shocking. Literally all the links on that page are for Trans.

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