If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

Yes clearly. But most of the people mentioned are undergoing a physical transition or have been kept in segregation. I still don’t agree with it, and think it’s ridiculous and have said many times that anyone with a penis still intact shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a women’s prison. But they will have been through masses of observation and assessment to deem whether they are ‘genuine’ trans. So what should be done with them in prison is a complex dilemma. There are also more cases than people realise (they’re not publicised) of female prisoners transitioning to male and then trying to abuse women, should we move them to men’s prison? I don’t know the answer, but the only way forward I can see is to keep them segregated completely. Social workers currently don’t let any bloke who says he identifies as female (and lots do try it on) move prisons without months and months of assessment. Surgery to transition is exceptionally brutal and unpleasant so if someone in custody has been allowed to get that far they will have been catergorised as ‘genuine’ trans. I have known of one person who had the full surgery, then wanted to change back. So occasionally they do slip through the net, but that is probably down to their naivety rather than a failing of health professionals.

Rumpled

You said As far as I’m aware, social workers and psychologists are wise enough not to let a violent criminal with a penis into a women’s prison. This is demonstrably wrong.

Maybe if you read the threads you would have know that.

This thread has answered all my queries about transphobia on MN and now I realise I was 100% correct before not to post in trans threads.

No one has actually READ most of my posts properly, don’t worry I’ve read all yours, and because I don’t agree with the that ‘fake’ trans people are a hugely credible threat I’ve been personally attacked, told I don’t care about women, told I don’t care about the rights of prisoners, (totally laughable when I’ve never noticed anyone MN gives two shits about them before you mention trans and seem to be campainging against the only polictal party that could improve the safety and conditions for the prison population, which are greatly at risk as we speak from hundreds of issues before fake trans people, due to the complete abject failure of the current government to keep them safe and run prisons properly. And why? Because the let a trans person be a women’s officer).

I have said repeatedly that I’m against self ID, and I’m for most women’s only spaces but I can’t help thinking MN borders on obsessional when it comes to toilets and changing rooms. The other area that is often cited where fake trans people might be a risk. IRL I’ve know a queue of women happily start using the men’s loo when no one else was waiting (myself included), women are happy to let their 10 yo boys roam round changing rooms when it suits them. Are we truly that bothered by having to piss in a cubicle next to man? One of our local pools has always had communal changing/shower area (better for families) and perving has never been a problem. I’m sure if people want to perve they can do it in the pool anyway. The safety of public toilets has a lot more to do with building design than it does categorising them into sex. There’s a town I visit where I’d never use the public loos because they are in a nasty quiet underpass, they are hardly used apart from to take drugs and I once saw someone who I would describe as creepy hanging around them. Do I think a lady sign would stop that person if they wanted to attack someone? No. Would I feel worried in a busy area or a busy shop changing next to a man or being in a cubicle next to a man? No, and again I don’t kniw anyone IRL who would either. Lots of shops I go to already have mixed changing areas and loos for either sex, because they are in closed lockable cubicles. Surely the busier a loo is the safer they become?

It's so frightening when you gather it together like that, annie

I've read about all of these individually before, but something about them being gathered in one place...and you're right, you could have gone on for quite a while before you ran short of material.

One of the most outrageous things about this effort to strip women of their rights is that so few women have heard about it.

So true. But what also truly astounds me is that even on being made aware of it, so many women are so convinced that it won't affect them.

As far as I’m aware, social workers and psychologists are wise enough not to let a violent criminal with a penis into a women’s prison

It's already happening in the UK.

Paris Green, kicked a man to death over a bag of chips, got moved (with his penis intact) to a women's prison after he declared his intent to transition. Had to be moved again (to another women's prison, ffs) after his sexually predatory behaviour with the women prisoners. It's prison, so there's no way of credibly establishing how much, if any, of the penetrative sex was consensual.

Or the double rapist "Jessica" Wingfield, who also had to be moved from a women's prison after sexually harrassing women prisoners - quelle surprise.

We've got Gary Dean Marie to look forward to. He's currently appearing on a popular UK petition as poor oppressed, vulnerable transwoman Marie Dean, who is being traumatised by being held in a male prison without access to hair straighteners and makeup. Dean has 60+ offences to his name. His speciality is a form of burglary, breaking into teenage girls' bedrooms and wanking into their underwear.

And if you think "well, I'm not going to prison so it's OK" - you'd feel safe at a women's march, no? Cherno Biko is a transwoman who wrote a blog about the rape he'd done to a transman in order to forcibly impregnate. Being totally open (and unrepentant) about being a rapist didn't stop him from being invited onto the stage of the first Washington Women's March as a speaker.

Or how about Andi Dyer, who was lauded by The Independent when he shouted down a rape survivor, Rose McGowan, at the book launch where she was talking about her own rape. Dyer has been known for years as someone who is a sexual predator of very young teenage girls. (I'm talking 12, 13.)

How about Mark "Karen" Jones, a convicted murderer, sex offender and rapist, described by a judge as posing an 'extremely serious risk' to the public, who was recently invited to the House of Lords to address a meeting on how trans people are dealt with in the prison system. Jones - who murdered a man and left his body decomposing in plastic, then gagged a woman before trying to rape her, and who then waved away his crimes as a "cry for help" - is now a motivational speaker on trans issues, god help us all.

Yes, yes, #notalltranswomen. But I could sit here all night typing out examples of transwomen who have committed awful abuses and rapes, and who are not shunned or treated as dreadful outcasts or outliers, but whose violent crimes seem not to matter once they have come out as trans.

One of the most outrageous things about this effort to strip women of their rights is that so few women have heard about it.
Considering how much the media loves conflict I think we should ask ourselves why is there so little coverage in this the year we are supposedly celebrating the first votes for women?

Only on pg2, so apologies as I haven't RTFT but had to chirp up...

@Rumpledfaceskin re: As far as I’m aware, social workers and psychologists are wise enough not to let a violent criminal with a penis into a women’s prison

Canadian politicians recently celebrated the progressive move of transferring a TW (w/ fully intact male junk) to the women's prison. THIS PRISONER WAS INCARCERATED FOR MURDERING 19 PEOPLE. Doesn't sound too violent to me

Women in prison literally cannot leave the space that they're being forced to share with male people. That's what a prison is, a place where your freedom is severely restricted and you have almost zero ability to protect yourself. So, given that, how is a prison of all places a space where we can go "oh, it's only happening there so no biggie"?

I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison?

Yeah! Well, fuck those vulnerable women in prison, then! Say yes to the 60+ sex-offending men who have declared that they are women, and move them immediately over to women's prisons! Put all these rapists and child abusers in with one of the most vulnerable female populations in the country, in circs where the women will literally be locked in with those abusers and unable to escape! They are only women in prison, after all. Nobody gives a shit about them.

Christ. Listen to yourself.

So shocked that you reported them all and they were deleted?
Trans threads have the least deletions on them out of most of the topics!

Cos you can’t actually argue with biology. No matter what fucking colour your panties are.

Was that to me, happybutpoor? If so, just to clarify that the sort of posts that I report are the "they're all just pervy cocks in frocks" comments which do appear here very very occasionally (and seldom from FWR regulars. And I report both because they breach the "spirit of MN" talk guideline and because they don't help our cause: it only takes one or two of those sorts of comments to be allowed to stand and it enables the TRAs to suggest that everything on here is transphobic bigotry

I don't think I've ever reported misgendering

I have a major problem with those trying to corrupt language to their will.

Yes Hacked and even more alarming as controled, manipulated and compelled language was enshrined in law in the Third Reich.

histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/tol/ger/gov/rev/hr-lang.html

It's absolutely bizarre assigned

Okay thank you :)

"I have a major problem with those trying to corrupt language to their will."

Me too hacked. I had a mad person threatening me with the police on twitter tonight for transphobia. Smoking their socks obviously; I had not said anything remotely transphobic, but apparently saying sex cannot be changed is, in fact, transphobic.

I am also a Nazi, a bigot and the worst type of person in the world.

It's fairly surreal to have one's politics perceived as having changed from left liberal to a Nazism, based on one issue, but this is life as we know it now

Sorry that was in response to Sanderz.

We were talking upthread about having posts deleted for misgendering.
I think this line about a person proposing to transgender being equally protected is the reason that MN is being cautious. Possibly overcautious.

I for one will be shouting out how bio females rights are protected under "sex" and I will be telling everyone to enact this, see below

fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/

Why did you post that Equality Act passage thebewilderness? Gender reassignment is one of the protected characteristics isn't it, so one of the grounds on which it is unlawful to discriminate (except in certain exceptions)?

It is a biological material reality that you can no abracadabra yourself from one sex to the other. Saying that we can clearly see that you are not what you say you are in not the same as saying you do not exist. That would be silly.
We know these men exist because they are screaming death and rape threats at us all day on the internet.

This is from the Equality Act 2010
Gender reassignment

(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

Several pages on and I still don't give a shiny shit if the new word for feminism is transphobia.

Fin deux.

I have a major problem with those trying to corrupt language to their will.

No law (yet) against "misgendering" (aka correctly sexing).

I will happily call transsexuals like Miranda Yardley, Truscum, Curry and others on here, transwomen I know in RL "she". I do it out of courtesy, because they are nice people, and what they believe inside their heads is no skin off my nose. Just as I address envelopes to my vicar friend "Reverend Friend" even though I do not believe there is a God by whom she is revered.

It will be a cold day in (non-existent) hell before I use female pronouns for the likes of "Davina" Ayrton and "Jessica Winfield".

bishybarnabee

"And I absolutely get that some trans people have behaved appallingly - but there is something about being told you don't have the right to exist which might not bring out the the best in people. "

Do explain. Trans activists say this all the time. How is anyone here telling trans they "don't have the right to exist"?