If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

"Transphobic" has indeed become a silencing word.

It's suddenly come from nowhere to become the most terrifying thing one can be accused of. Worse than paedo, misogynist, racist, or homophobic. We'll do and say ANYTHING not to be labelled a trans-phobe.

As others have pointed out, it's a silly, made-up word which isn't even used to mean the thing it is supposed to mean: A phobia is an "irrational fear" but the word is now used to mean "someone who does not wholehearted love and adore every cross-dresser and everything he does and says."

I don't wholehearted love and adore every cross-dresser and everything he does and says. Some of them hate women, make ridiculous, nonsensical assertions (e.g. "It's a lady-penis", so it can't get you pregnant) and some are just pornified parodies of us. We have a perfect right to dislike people who hate and parody us.

If that that makes me a transphobe, so be it. I'll get a badge made!

However, let's inject some sanity here. People ARE allowed to dislike, even hate, whomever they want. So long as they don't incite violence towards that person or group. We still have freedom of thought.

Disliking certain people or groups does not make someone an evil bigot. It means they are discerning and have an opinion.

I hate the Nazis, kiddie fiddlers, the Tories, wife-beaters, misogynists, porn-watching men, Corbyn (now), my next door neighbour, people who are cruel to animals, racists, narcissists, murderers, rapists, and a whole host of other groups or types of people, and if I were to hate the trans, that is also my right.

Thanks, will read! I appreciate your taking the time. There's such as shedload of misinformation flying about that I prefer not to add to it inadvertently.

dodopatrol
Oh and btw although prisons allocate based on legal sex a trans-identified female prisoner with a GRC (so legally male) is allowed to stay in the female estate if they want. This is a different rule for them because the prison service acknowledges it would be bloody dangerous for a female born person to be sent to a male prison.

This does have implications for the women prisoners that I havent thought of before actuyally. These transmen can be living in the womens prison - they aren't really men of course so dont present more of a danger than they did before they called themselves men. but we do know that if they are on testosterone it will make them more aggressive.

It is transphobic,

It would be really helpful if you could define ‘transphobic’. Thanks

dodoPatrol

Hello - yes I'm Nic Williams. Here is the link to the most recent MoJ trans figures of 125

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/noms-annual-offender-equalities-report-2016-to-2017

Hereyougo - the 'level of bigotry' arises because there are genuine problems that stem from regarding people's gender as more important than their sex. That's what I keep coming back to, despite all my preferences for being nice.

DodoPatrol
Figures released after the study do say 125 - and like you say its hard to tell what sex they are and they are not the ones with a GRC

In my study - we counted the number of mentions of trans prisoners in annual prison reports. From this we counted a minimum of 113 trans prisoners. We don't know if they are transmen or transwomen from the reports - but I did confirm with MoJ with a Freedom of info request that there are not female born prisoners currently in male prisons. So this means all the trans prisoners counted from the male prisons must be transwomen (including all the prisoners in the male sex offender only prisons).

Thanks, Datun and DoctorW (Nic, I assume!). Do either of you have a link to the updated MoJ figures, though, as I'm sure FPW could more easily be accused of bias than the MoJ's own stats?

Presumably the NOMS report has a coincidentally similar number of 'not yet GRC but trans' prisoners?

It is transphobic, people including myself have complained and MNHQ don't seem to give a shit. The "issues" seem to have snowballed recently, and it does all seem a bit hysterical. This level of bigotry towards other groups absolutely would not be tolerated so I don't know why it's not only allowed but actually defended by MNHQ.

f female prisoners transitioning to male and then trying to abuse women

That seems a weird thing to do

Its not like you have to be a male to abuse women, there have always been violent women (just not as many as violent men)

But yes, definitely reinforces the need for a 3rd space

X post. Sorry.

But I keep seeing the figure '125 trans prisoners, half of them sex offenders'. If that's a figure from somewhere else, where is it from?

It's here. Including the way the statistics were arrived that, every step of the way.

fairplayforwomen.com/impact-gra-reform-uk-prisons/

DodoPatrol
Hi - I did the study by Fair Play For Women counting the number of trans prisoners. Half of them being either in specialist sex offender only prisons or cat A top security. The study and other info in link below

fairplayforwomen.com/impact-gra-reform-uk-prisons/

I said this on a thread yesterday but here is my question:

If a GRC can be issued to a rapist or a child sex offender and there is no risk assessment in the application process that even takes note of MVAWG or such convictions, why should I respect this piece of paper or give any acknowledgement to holders of it?

Why?

Datun, I've posted this before about prison stats because as far as I can see, the figures are being misquoted on here and are more obscure than that.
'I'm getting from the National Offender Management Service that of the 125 reported cases of transgender prisoners (rather weirdly defined as 'those who have had a case review and don't have a GRC'), 99 reported themselves to be male, 23 as female and 3 didn't say.

I can't be sure whether this means that 99 of them were biological females who identified as male, and only 23-ish males who identified as female, or whether some of those correctly reported their sex, having misinterpreted the question.

There were NO figures for those who have already got a GRC, as they are already legally of the opposite sex. The NOMS report was specific about that.'

But I keep seeing the figure '125 trans prisoners, half of them sex offenders'. If that's a figure from somewhere else, where is it from?

Don't get me wrong: the known and named cases of dangerous male sex offenders who want to be in women's prisons are more than enough to worry about, but I don't want to misquote figures.

There’s not a ‘list’ of trans people.

I'm not sure where you're getting your info, but it is wrong.

The data was originally not available. So fair play for women read every single inspection report and produced an article on the basis of those.

This was published in the times amongst other places.

Trans-activists went into overdrive to debunk the statistics.

Consequently, the Ministry of Justice was forced to collate and release their own figures.

Which they did. And it was found that Fairplay for women had actually underestimated the statistics. They had done this deliberately in order to not be accused of bias. Where it wasn't clear from the inspection reports they said so.

Of course there are women who identify as male and wish to transition in prison, why would any member of the public know about this unless they had contact with people who work with them and offload about their hellish jobs, like I do? There’s not a ‘list’ of trans people. Although to be fair my person doesn’t work in a normal prison. It’s a secure unit for people who are diagnosed as mentally ill and have committed serious crimes. They currently have concerns about women on wards with other women. More so than their male clients who either are or claim to be trans. Most are assessed as having no real desire to transition, so I guess they’re considered not to have GRC. Some of their male clients have transitioned fully but have been released by the time it’s complete. I’ve not heard of any being allowed to move to a women’s prison but maybe that’s because they are the highest security prisoners.

I also find it incredibly offensive to suggest that my biological reality is of less importance than men's ideas if what womanhood is and feels like. It is the epitome of misogyny.

Yes, this.

And I know it has been said a thousand times but, if I blacked up, wore my hair in corn rows, started listening to hip hop, and changed my name to Shaniqua, and then declared that I was a trans black person and that 'trans black people are black' and put myself forward for BAME positions and started telling black people that they need to 'do better' and they are not doing being black correctly, and how not all black people have black skin, and won awards meant for black people.....

Well, I think I would quite rightly be told to fuck off.

Sorry, bold fail on that top-line quote, there.

I find it very telling that TRAs, for all their clout, their loud voices, their activism, don't appear to ever have any intention of campaigning for third spaces.

I have written before about a series of conferences I went to, where almost all the toilets were converted to "gender neutral", with only one set of loos (down a corridor, around a corner, up some stairs, etc etc) labelled women-only. TRAs like Roz Kaveney and Jane Fae would still walk the extra mile in order to go to the women's loos. It's not about safety in peeing. It's entirely about validation, and ownership of women's spaces, and violating women's boundaries. That's been clear for a very long time.

Rumpledfaceskin

There are also more cases than people realise (they’re not publicised) of female prisoners transitioning to male and then trying to abuse women

I'm really interested in this. Because as far as I was aware, there were no transmen in prison. Is that wrong?

Currently the law says if you have a GRC you automatically get transferred to the estate of your preferred sex.

If you don't have a GRC you are assessed on a case-by-case basis.

As far as know, if you are a man who has committed a crime that would put you in the highest security possible, you would stay in the male estate. Not because that is considered sensible, but because there is no such unit in the female estate. However, that doesn't stop rapists being transferred to the female prison. (Rape obviously not being considered a crime that deserves the highest security possible).

So I imagine a transman, who had a GRC, would have to follow the same rules. Get transferred to the male estate. Which would, clearly, be wrong. And instantly underlines the ludicrousness of the situation. That everyone knows you can't change sex and women are more at risk than men.

The reason why this is only affecting a few prisoners, is because, currently, only 1% of trans people have a GRC.

You have to have lived in your preferred sex for two years and have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Which makes it a pretty good gatekeeping tool. Although you don't have to have any kind of body modification or be on any sort of treatment. Or dress any differently.

And if self ID goes through, the gatekeeping will be removed.

The 12,000 odd male sex offenders could, on the basis of self ID get automatic transfer to the female estate. Since they would have to prove nothing about being 'trans'.

Also the most common paraphilia amongst prison inmates is cross dressing, I should imagine they would be lining up to practice this amongst females, as it would be arousing.

I really would challenge your assertion that the people the prison authorities are most concerned with is women identifying as men.

Because there are about 12,000 male sex offenders in prison and about 120 women.

Linking violence towards women with trans issues is a bit of a red herring

Well, if you ignore the blindingly obvious correlation with trans and narcissistic personalities, yes.

Male narcissists with fragile identities are the very males who pose the most risk to women. This includes males with a trans identity, which is fragile for obvious reasons. Refusing to validate a narc is the most dangerous thing a woman can do.

Again, you are impossibly naive.

rumpled it's not just about safety concerns. It's about women's rights, our ability to be recognised as an oppressed group and what forms that oppression takes.
I also find it incredibly offensive to suggest that my biological reality is of less importance than men's ideas if what womanhood is and feels like. It is the epitome of misogyny.

Read this
medium.com/@GappyTales/a-crisis-of-misogny-a-plea-to-the-labour-party-4ce9d39e11c4

Comparatively few never mind them then eh?

their attacker would be a deviant criminal who didn’t care about a lady symbol on a loo
Reads like you haven't read the many posts upthread re: the fact that many predators are not so brazen that they'll put themselves at legal risk to enter women's bathrooms, but will be fine exploiting the lax legal provision that will be reality if self-ID gains recognition in policy.
These people do not use moral yardsticks to make decisions, they strategise with ref to personal risk. There's no use dehumanising the predatory stranger as someone who's blindly sex crazed and willing to sacrifice anything for their 'fix'. They are people, they rationalise and walk among us, we don't identify them until they are actually committing the offence.

I find it very telling that TRAs, for all their clout, their loud voices, their activism, don't appear to ever have any intention of campaigning for third spaces.

Not even as a stop gap while the world gets 'woke'. It's never even really been mentioned.

Even though its the obvious solution. Yes logistically it might be difficult in places, but disabled people have campaigned relentlessly for better provision and things continue to get better.

No, it's either the women's toilets or 'genocide' apparently.