If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

No child, man, woman or beast should be told to do housework for what’s meant to be a fun hobby tbh. I guess that’s why I find the entire movement so creepy. It’s all very last century.

I don't know..I mean, exogenous testosterone isn't required for physical health. If female prisoners are claiming "trans", taking male levels of testosterone and the drug is making them aggressive enough to endanger fellow female inmates, its obviously causing unwanted reactions and needs to be stopped. Because it's either that or seg them, to be fair to everyone else.

Girls have been allowed to join the scouts for years. I don’t remember anyone caring too much,

You are right, Rumpled, and nobody cared because everyone concerted - staff, volunteers and children - knew that scouts was a mixed-sex organisation, and understood that when the scouts were on residentials, or doing something that required changing facilities, etc, there would be appropriate, safe single-sex dormitories and changing rooms for those young people to use.

Guides haven't said that they are going mixed-sex, they've just redefined single-sex so that it isn't single-sex, but includes boys who identify as girls. Their official guidence tells their own guide leaders that parents and girls aren't going to be told in advance (or possibly at all, though I don't understand how it'll be kept secret) when boys will be joining any unit, or taking part in any activitiies that require overnight stays or changing facilities.

And the current climate of "girls are mean if they object to sharing intimate space with boys" means that girls who do hate it will be under a lot of pressure to keep quiet about being distressed. They will just leave. There's also plenty of parents that will just withdraw their girls when they discover what has been happening. And so thus yet another facility whose entire purpose is to be there for girls will become inaccessible to those very girls it is meant to serve.

Yawn. I’ve run both girl guides and scouts groups. You should have seen the hysteria when I tried to get my cubs their bloody home helper badge. Oh yes I did. I brought in a Hoover, an iron, an ironing board, and a sewing kit so they could learn how to sew on a badge. (There was also taking telephone messages and changing light bulbs). You would have thought I was lining them up against a wall and ripping off their bollocks.
A beaver leader walked past and yelled ‘oi, what are you lot doing all that women’s work for?’
Believe me, rumpled, there are bloody good reasons why girls and women need their own spaces, to get away from those attitudes.

Archeryannie it’s a bit of a tangent from the discussion but I find your point about girl guides a bit odd. Girls have been allowed to join the scouts for years. I don’t remember anyone caring too much. I will admit I find the whole movement bizarre to be honest and deeply sexist. Even in the 90s brownies were still doing things such as a ‘washing up’ and ‘knitting’ badges, whilst the boys were off having fun building dens and starting camp fires. It sounds to me like they’re actually taking steps to bash down the ridiculous gender stereotypes that has governed the movement for so long. Should both boys and girls be allowed segregated spaces from each other? Or does this breed more gender inequality? I know what I think but that’s just my opinion.

It’s a bit like the incidents of women using the men’s loos to avoid the queue. They all assumed no man who came along would actually call us out for doing it. It does seem to me that lots of women wouldn’t call for the sanctity of all male spaces yet become affronted when men and boys encroach their spaces.

It would also be really helpful if you could define 'woman'

Adult human female

It would be really helpful if you could define ‘transphobic’. Thanks

It would also be really helpful if you could define 'woman' because the only definitions I know are, apparently, bigoted.

And, while you're finding these definitions, look up 'female' as well, because more and more I'm seeing it used interchangeably with 'woman'.

Likewise 'sex' and 'gender'.

Obviously these definitions need to apply to both me, a human who has gestated and given birth to babies, and Lily Madigan.

Have a proper debate. Offer proper reassurance by going through the pitfalls one by one. This ill feeling will largely all disappear.

Instead we have a total contempt for why this process is worthwhile and why its needed.

The "issues" seem to have snowballed recently

Do you know why this is? There is a very specific reason that is continually discussed.

MNHQ don't seem to give a shit

But they do. They seem to be aware of the specific reason behind this and are sticking their necks out like very few other media entities, such as The Times, because this consider this to be an important issue where discussion shouldn't be shut down.

This level of bigotry towards other groups absolutely would not be tolerated

I see this sort of statement again and again on mumsnet, hereyougosuckmyassforensics, but what the bigotry is, is never explained, however much people ask for clarification. I've posted a number of times on this thread; would you include my posts as part of the "bigotry" you cite, and if so, why?

I'm at the point of knowing who is going to be persuaded and who its a waste of time banging my head against the wall with.

I think it better to point out people who really cannot be bothered to engaged with the issues, no matter what you say.

The laziness does need to be called out for what it is.

People are being demonised for trying to express their point in a rational and fair way and told there is no debate, when that's no how democracy should work and there are problems here that people don't have the decency to acknowledge and prefer to sweep under the carpet and pretend they don't exist in one way or another. The fingers in the ears going la la la approach, isn't going to stop harm being done by poor law making and misunderstandings of the law.

Women DESERVE to be listened and be reassured.

If it pisses a couple of lazy people off to be pulled up on it, fine. It obviously hit a nerve.

@hereyougosuckmyassforensics

Of course, I'm a massive Trump fan

I have no doubt they can be, there is no vetting procedure to weed them out unfortunately. When they are being bigots feel free to get in line to call them out as the majority of posters on these threads tend to do. But SHOCK HORROR 'politely and logically questioning' an ideology isn't bigotry and people do not deserve any of the vitriol that is thrown at them for doing so.

DoctorW. It’s exactly that. The pattern seems to be that once women start to transition or identify as male they are ramping up attempts to attack fellow female inmates. Whether that’s because of taking testosterone (quite likely) or they just feel some sort of psychological barrier has been broken throughthat gives them validation, I don’t know. I think it’s an important part of the debate though that people often forget about.

What home said

red also has the patience of a saint

Frustration gets the better of us all sometimes.

Tbf hereyougo RedToothBrush has done bloody LOADS to further the cause on these boards, with relentlessly insightful, informative posts.

I just had a quick look at extant guidance for Prisons on the Care and Management of Transgender Prisoners.

I've never looked at this before so by no means fully versed with how this works, however, it appears that there is already a presumption in favour of housing self-identifying transwomen (no GRC) in the female estate.

The guidance states that there may be a minority of cases where this presumption will not be supported:

In the minority of cases where that is not possible, the reasons for departing from this starting presumption must be clear, explicit and made known to the person they affect, especially when it involves assigning someone to a male or female prison.

The majority of such cases are likely to concern transgender people convicted of serious offences, where both public protection and the best interests of the person themselves may not be compatible with the general presumption described above. However, this will not be true of all transgender serious offenders and it is important that policy for the majority should not be founded upon the highly complex considerations raised by a minority

So if a MTF prisoner who self-identifies (no GRC) and who wishes to move to the female estate can already do so under current prison policy, what is really going to change if self-id is enacted under the GRA?

@RedToothBrush I don't usually "be arsed" to read posts that start with an oh-so-eloquent "are you fucking stupid". Any credibility you had to begin with completely vanishes when you talk to people like they're shit on your shoe. People like you harm your cause.

@TeaEnjoyingRadientFeminist that sounds like something a donald trump supporter would say. Bigots come in all shapes and sizes and SHOCK HORROR feminists can also be bigots.

DoctorW

Your study found 10 trans prisoners in IOW and labelled them as sex offenders due to your claim that IOW only houses sex offenders as explained in your study because 98% of inmates are sex offenders.

A check of the MOJ confirms that IOW also holds venerable prisoners. you know the type of inmate trans prisoners are! But even so with over 1000 inmates in IOW your 10 only represent 1% of the population and half of your ignored 2% population .

How did you account for and identify those 20 non sex offender prisoners in your study before you marked the 10 trans prisoners as sex offenders?

Do you need a positive adjective to counter the knee jerk "transphobic".

"Pro-biology" "gender-free" "biology positive" "chromosome-supporting"...

I took a break from MN recently as I disliked the level of focus on sexism and transgender issues. I thought you was a bit hysterical and actively seeking to be scared worried or offended, I will be honest and hold my hands up to that. But in the past few months I've used Facebook a lot and It has really highlighted to me why it's a good thing that women can really talk about these types of issues here without being shut down or laughed off as being a snowflake or hysterical, well mostly anyway

I've been jumped on and called all sorts for raising some of the issues pointed out in this thread and it's not even just with transgender stuff either it's with lots of things. I went against the tide on a post about those Clark's shoes a while ago and pointed out that whilst it's a very small thing on it's own it's just one of the many gender stereotypes that helps to form the bigger issues of sexism in society and I was laughed straight off the post with every feminist insult you can think of, it was even assumed that I must me a freebleeding vegan iirc.

It's refreshing to come back here and read posts from people who aren't arsed about appearing to be all accepting and never offended and instead actually engage their brain and think about things properly.

This level of bigotry towards other groups absolutely would not be tolerated

Of course. Women who dare to politely and logically question the implications of Self-ID or resist the term 'cis' are frequently threatened with violence, sexual assault, told to die in fires, and compared to Nazis, but we're the bigots

hereyougosuckmyassforensics I refer you to my post at 9:18 this morning which you failed to be arsed to read.

Transphobic is the misogynist and homophobic word for feminism.

And, as I've already said, I don't give one solitary shit if misogynists and homophobes want to rebrand feminism as transphobia. I'm still a feminist. I've still got friends who have transitioned who a) like me, and b) are neither misogynists nor homophobes.

Happy to be called transphobic. I just hear feminist when it happens.