If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

People like you harm your cause.
howitworks.png

that there is therefore no safeguarding risk of consensual sexual activity leading to pregnancy

I wonder how long it will be before the first teen pregnancy. I also worry about young teens not understanding the risk of pregnancy if they are repeatedly told that x who is a biological male with a penis is really a girl. After all girls can’t get each other pregnant.

Adult human female works for me too. Y'know with it being the truth n all...

It would also be really helpful if you could define 'woman'

Adult human female

Well, yes, that's the definition I understand, too. But apparently it's wrong. And we're bigots if we hold to that definition.

Same old rinse and repeat : shout 'transphobic !' loudly, pile in under a number of aliases and demand to shut down any kind of discussion . I value MN for its open minded attitude in resisting the TRA hyperbole and letting us discuss important matters in a civilised manner. Long may it continue.

if sleeping arrangements are allowed to be mixed at least everyone knows that is whats happening. Parents will be aware, leaders will be aware, the girls will be aware

There is usually a girls tent and boys tent for sleeping for cubs...i dont kniw about scouts

but there would (i imagine) be shared tents for guides if a transgirl is the same as a girl

Ha, Champion, I should have known! Gender nonconforming girls are turfed out eventually but boys who identify as girls are welcome.

It's not going to be the FTM Guides that get other Guides pregnant, is it?

For those that think nobody in the real world cares, this video is a controversial US media personality discussing the impact on women more widely. He does skate pretty close to the edge but the point is this is happening, for real, out there. And it will affect real women and girls.

but it would probably just be better to make them all open to all

They are now open to all. They just aren't being clear with parents and the girls that they are open to all.

Counting down to a massive safeguarding lawsuit in a couple of years' time....

So it would just be preferable to make guides mixed sex really. Or my preferred option abolish them altogether as it’s completely archaic.

Guides is now mixed-sex - it's just that they are currently lying and telling girls and their parents that it's still girls-only. With the best of intentions (perhaps) but it's still bloody dangerous and exclusionary.

And it's fine if you or your DDs don't want to make use of a single-sex organisation! But that's a decision for you alone, and not a decision you can take on behalf of the half-a-million girls who do want actively to take part in girls-only activities.

ChampiontheWonderHamster
And the Cubs/Scouts? Abolish them too?

Cubs and Scouts are a mixed sex club but if sleeping arrangements are allowed to be mixed at least everyone knows that is whats happening. Parents will be aware, leaders will be aware, the girls will be aware.

In Girl guides no one is allowed to know if a natal boy is sleeping in the same tent / room as their daughters. Parents can't give informed consent. This is the difference.

Should we abolish every organisation we disagree with then? How very authoritarian.

I mean, I personally find the whole quasi-militaristic vibe of scouts etc. a bit off, but lots of parents and children find many positive aspects of the organisation. Who am I to tell them they're wrong. I'm an agnostic, so wouldn't send my child to Sunday school or a religious school - but lots of parents do believe, and send their children there. And if I want them to respect my lack of belief (which I do) then by the same token I should respect their beliefs.

I tend to view trans issues along analogous lines. I do not buy into the quasi-religious belief that transwomen are women, lady souls trapped in men's bodies, #nodebate. Others do buy into it. No-one should be policing other people's beliefs. However, the practical consequences - men in women's prisons, men in DV and rape crisis centres, men in women's sports - those I do care about. Beliefs don't matter. Actions following from those beliefs do.

berkinbag
So if a MTF prisoner who self-identifies (no GRC) and who wishes to move to the female estate can already do so under current prison policy, what is really going to change if self-id is enacted under the GRA?

The significant thing at the moment is that if a trans prisoner wants to transfer to female prison but does not have a GRC (so is legally male) they have to have their case referred to a transgender review board who will look at the evidence and decide what to do. So if they are to dangerous or trying to abuse the system this panel will obviously not allow them to move.

In contrast if getting a GRC becomes a matter of signing a form then these prisoners will be able to by pass the panel stage and become automatically eligible for women's prison. The self-ID stage removes the ability for the prison to make common sense decisions. They will have to consider them all female, even the obviously false ones.

I was joking really, it’s not something I’d ever want my nearest and dearest involved with in the same way I wouldn’t like them to join some sort of cult but it would probably just be better to make them all open to all.

So it would just be preferable to make guides mixed sex really. Or my preferred option abolish them altogether as it’s completely archaic.

I’d feel safer the busier the toilet, regardless of the sex of the people in there. Not literally everyone is a sex offender. And maybe women wouldn’t have to queue for so fucking long as an added bonus.

debbie6666

DoctorW

^Your study found 10 trans prisoners in IOW and labelled them as sex offenders due to your claim that IOW only houses sex offenders as explained in your study because 98% of inmates are sex offenders.

A check of the MOJ confirms that IOW also holds venerable prisoners. you know the type of inmate trans prisoners are! But even so with over 1000 inmates in IOW your 10 only represent 1% of the population and half of your ignored 2% population .

How did you account for and identify those 20 non sex offender prisoners in your study before you marked the 10 trans prisoners as sex offenders?^

correct - Isle Of Wight prison is a specialist sex offender and hold 98% sex offenders. The other 2% are local residents from the Island on remand. And unless the Isle of Wight is a hotbed for transgender criminals I think its safe to say the most likely explanation is that the 10 trans prisoners there are sex offenders.

I would have loved to have confirmed with the MoJ that they are convicted of sex offences but alas this information was not given to me, despite a freedom of information request.

Regarding the term vulnerable prisoners. Sex offenders are considered vulnerable prisoners because they are at risk of violence from other inmates. Trans prisons and indeed anyone at risk of harm from other prisoners are often held on a vulnerable prisoner wing in a prison. However, the cost of housing a prisoner in a specialist sex offender prison is much much higher than a normal prison so its very unlikely any ordinary vulnerable prisoners would be held there - most would be accommodated on a vulnerable prisoner wing in a standard prison. It would be a last resort to send a vulnerable prison who was not a sex offender to the IOW prison. only prisoners like ex-police who are at serious risk.

But yes, even if we assume the highly unlikely scenario that all 10 of these trans prisoners from IOW were not sex offenders, and the same for the Littlehey sex offender prison. We are still left with at least 26 trans sex offenders. This is still at least as high at the % of sex offenders in the male prison population (17%). And this is the point isnt it. We wouldn't let non-trans prisoners live with women because so many of them are sex offenders. The same principle applies to trans prisoners. This study shows that transwomen prisoners have a pattern of criminality that is male . Completely different to the tiny % of women convicted of sex offences.

This study uses all the publicly available information there is to make the best estimate it can. What we need to hard facts from the MOJ. They could tell us the proportion of trans prisoners who are sex offenders but refuse to do so. Information like this is crucial if we are to properly and fairly risk assess the impact of policy change on women prisoners.

Rumpledfaceskin: yes the scouts "allowed" girls to join, in 1991 for all sections, after a big fall in numbers. And yes, there was quite an outcry at the time, many units resisted the change and some split to form the Baden Powell scouts which stayed all boys.
Girlguiding stayed as a single sex organisation until jan 2017, when the wording was changed to "single gender".
When asked gguk members have always replied saying they wanted to stay girl only.
For the record, we don't just wash up or learn how to do the cleaning - we do everything the scouts do and more, but in our own way. The latest badge to be announced is an aeronautics badge for Brownies btw.

Oh and the cubs? What about this:

members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4315/home-help-activity-badge/?cat=12,67,776&moduleID=10

Remarkably similar to a Brownie badge I did in the 1960's.

I find your point about girl guides a bit odd.

How dense can you be? Guides are implementing mixed sex accommodation for tweens and teens on camps and residentials but maintaining that these are single gender accommodations and that there is therefore no safeguarding risk of consensual sexual activity leading to pregnancy let alone anything of an abusive nature. Not only that, but any information on whether a particular residential will have mixed sex accommodation is forbidden to be disclosed to the participants and their parents.

And, when challenged, are issuing explicit confirmations that this is their position. They might as well say they think babies are delivered by bloody storks.

It’s a bit like the incidents of women using the men’s loos to avoid the queue. They all assumed no man who came along would actually call us out for doing it. It does seem to me that lots of women wouldn’t call for the sanctity of all male spaces yet become affronted when men and boys encroach their spaces

The safest toilets will soon be the men's as all the men who want to harass women, will be [guess where???]...

*Or dosage decreased to a safe level.