If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

‘We can’t tell the difference between men and women and therefore all loos might as well be unisex’ is an argument for more unisex loos. However, it doesn’t have much to do with self ID which is about access to single sex facilities.

We will never have sensible debates about the need for unisex and single sex facilities while so many people (the Labour Party in particular) are frightened of challenging the current dogma that being a woman is some vague unknowable subjective state that has nothing to do with vaginas.

*RE Feeling like a man/woman, if what people mean is that they feel masculine/feminine then that would make some sort of sense in that the stereotypes exist and we all know which traits are "supposed" to fall into each culturally determined bucket. The solution to that is to get rid of the stereotypes so that if someone's personality doesn't "match" it doesn't matter.

If what they mean is that they feel male/female then that makes no sense at all because how could you possibly know what it feels like to inhabit a body that you never have inhabited? It would be like me (shortarse) saying that I feel tall - how would I know what that feels like?*

100%. And hating being short doesn't mean you are tall.

That particular comment wasn't aimed at you, Debbie, I was talking to Rumple.

AngryAttackKittens

I didn't call anyone a lair. I just posted the content of the link provided by DoctorW in her own study. Here is some more cut and paste.

Our study shows that TIMs show a rate of sex offending that is at least the same or higher than that of male inmates who do not identify as transgender. This matches a similar observation by Dhejne et al. (2011), who showed that TIMs exhibited male-pattern criminality for violent crimes.

Follow link and you get

Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Make up your own mind on if lies were told or not!

RE Feeling like a man/woman, if what people mean is that they feel masculine/feminine then that would make some sort of sense in that the stereotypes exist and we all know which traits are "supposed" to fall into each culturally determined bucket. The solution to that is to get rid of the stereotypes so that if someone's personality doesn't "match" it doesn't matter.

If what they mean is that they feel male/female then that makes no sense at all because how could you possibly know what it feels like to inhabit a body that you never have inhabited? It would be like me (shortarse) saying that I feel tall - how would I know what that feels like?

This is fan-dubbed which is annoying, but watching this last night and what did this scene make me think of

Also kind of funny that you went directly from "how dare you call me a liar?" to "btw you're lying", Rumple.

DoctorW

just to make the point about reading the small print. The summary of the Dhejne et al study you link to in your study as supporting your claims says the following.

Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

For me, it's the blatant sexism of "feeling like a man/woman" that gets me every time. Their belief that gender is a real thing. Just because they hate their bodies and suffer from a mental disorder doesn't mean they are actually their preferred sex.
A lot of this "stop gendering genitals" bullshit ultimately comes from a place of insecurity and wanting to be validated.

Maybe you should take your own advice and be more observant then, because ime most people in Thailand have no problem at all noticing who's female and who's khathoey.

My (east Asian) partner says that he thinks that the supposed inability of many Westerners to tell whether or not someone is khathoey is based on racism, and I'm inclined to think that he's right.

Thanks for calling me a liar for pointing out an inconvenient truth to people obsessed with sex that lots of people ARE androgynous, and more will probably become so as we move to more acceptance of it (you clearly just aren’t very observant). I have said I’ve witnessed first hand the humiliation of women challenged because they don’t conform to gender stereotypes. I wouldn’t want that for my daughter either.

What are you even talking about?

You said that people couldn't tell the sex of many other human beings just by looking.

Several posters replied that actually, human beings have an unerring ability to distinguish biological sex just by looking.

Exactly where is the moral judgement?

No wonder you keep talking nonsense about what's written in this forum. You're projecting all the way.

Someone can be androgynous and you can still tell what their sex is. In fact the more GNC people you've spent time around the easier it is to do so. I've met very pretty men who wear far more makeup than I do. You can still tell that they're men.

rumple

Who has called you a liar??

Angryattack I’ve also spent time in that part of Thailand and I call BS on that. I didn’t have a clue who had a dick. On a side note I think we’ve created a lot of problems for ourselves in the U.K. by being so fuck8ng obsessed with gender. I wish we did have a cultural system more like Thailand.

Thanks for calling me a liar for pointing out an inconvenient truth to people obsessed with sex that lots of people ARE androgynous, and more will probably become so as we move to more acceptance of it (you clearly just aren’t very observant). I have said I’ve witnessed first hand the humiliation of women challenged because they don’t conform to gender stereotypes. I wouldn’t want that for my daughter either.

DoctorW

The things we can take away from the noms data is that either there are far more AFAB trans prisoners, something never mentioned in the reporting of your study. Or that the claim AMAB prisoners self identifying as trans and female is false as given the chance they just resoundingly didn't do that. Like you say they they "Self Reported", and they did so as Male.

As for your comment that I am belittling your study, then sorry, you put it out there and are using it to try and influence government policy and public opinion with substantial claims when it doesn't stand up to basic criticism and even goes as far as misrepresenting Dhejne et al to support its finding, when the Dhejne et al study only found that evidence in the pre1989 group. The post 1989 through 2003 group, which is most relevant to today, had completely different evidence.

Sorry but the data to support your claims simply is not there, campaigning for it to be collected is the right thing to do, not going out there and making assumptions and guesses that fit your own bias and claiming them as fact.

I don't think I've ever encountered a person whose biological sex was undeterminable, and I've spent time in the part of Thailand that has the highest concentration of khathoey.

I have often seen people in public whose biological sex is completely undeterminable.

Absolute horseshit. Humans can recognise a fellow human being's sex with almost 100% accuracy. (One of a gazillion studies confirming: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15249109).

We're also getting closer to working how we can also recognise the sex of another human being in the dark, which we also can. We do it by smell (www.scientificamerican.com/article/human-sexual-responses-boosted-by-bodily-scents/).

I sympathise with the trans people who desperately want to pass and don't, but the fact is that 99.99% of them DO NOT PASS.

Other people have different experiences.

There's an inherent narcissism in so much TRA that I don't think they can get their heads around that ^

Re: Loos and Changing rooms.

I don't care much about loos or changing rooms and regularly get changed in full view of everyone on the beach (live near sea, go in water all year round). But then I am able bodied, continent and have manageable periods. In all honesty, I don't care about public loos and changing rooms because I can pretty much avoid using them.

Other people have different experiences.

I don't think there will be any change while it's still considered transphobic to insist that the difference between men and women is limited to their physical biology and that gender is a social construct that doesn't exist.

I'm pretty sure that 5-10 years ago these were just basic truisms. Being open minded and liberal, I'd be willing to listen to other points of view, It's just that nobody is able to explain what these are, except something about women having to be nice and inclusive.

Adult human female

Well, yes, that's the definition I understand, too. But apparently it's wrong. And we're bigots if we hold to that definition.

If we are @JellySlice then so is the law

Equality Act 2010 Section 212 (1)

“woman” means a female of any age.

Rumpledfaceskin I genuinely appreciate you continuing to post here. My views on this topic have done a massive U Turn in the last year. I like having the finer details of my opinions challenged because I'm fully aware of being in the 'bigot' chair. It's uncomfortable. But it seems that there's no other place for me ATM.

It would be so much easier to go back to saying 'it's probably going to be fine'.

Re toilets. My 13 yo and her friend were harassed by a group of three men yesterday. Intimidated. I don't want it to be normal for men like that to be anywhere near my DD in enclosed, vulnerable spaces. I don't want DD using unisex toilets or changing rooms. I don't want her boundaries blurred. She is not yet equipped to deal with these situations.