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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

405 replies

midgebabe · 05/03/2018 17:22

I find it very unfair to be accused of transphobia when I am not actually worried about trans people as such. I am worried about how bad men might abuse legislative changes . I am worried about giving bad men more opportunities . About how people might be able to pretend to be trans. I suspect this is a threat to both biological women and trans women.

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RedToothBrush · 07/03/2018 15:46

Vaguely, who was arrested? A woman or a person who identifies as a woman.

VaguelyAware · 07/03/2018 15:24

This woman was arrested in Canada, at a protest. She was armed with a garrotte. Why the hell should things like this make me feel better about the trans movement?

ottawacitizen.com/news/national/ont-woman-arrested-after-rally-against-jordan-peterson/wcm/d8e9093a-3cd8-41c4-b8ca-46e07d86ed57

DodoPatrol · 07/03/2018 14:47

Blush I'm absolutely no expert on this, just a parent with a child in one, possibly two of the vulnerable categories for sudden-onset gender problems, and have seen several friends hit by it already.

Sanderz · 07/03/2018 14:44

Thank you Dodo and Datun, lots to think about.

BerkInBag · 07/03/2018 13:28

This is long. Apologies in advance. Can I also caveat that I work in the construction industry and until recently have had no cause to think about these issues. This is my attempt at making sense of it all. I am totally open to critique and correction from anybody kind enough to take the time to read the following.

@DoctorW
The Scottish system does not have a self-identification system for locating prisoners in female prisons.

Everything I am reading, parliamentary research briefing and the actual Scottish Policy itself, indicates that it does have a self-identification system.

No GRC is required, in fact the policy clearly states that Applying for a gender recognition certificate is optional and is not required in order to have protection from gender reassignment discrimination . The policy highlights that the GRC is simply the mechanism that lets a trans person change their birth certificate to reflect the gender they now live in. Self-declaration is all that is required for prison Reception Managers and Unit Managers to initiate accommodating trans persons in custody within the estate they identify with.

(Doctor W states) It might not be called a 'transgender case board' but someone in the Scottish prison service will be doing an assessment and saying yes or no to the move to a women's prison.

The “someone” who “does the assessment” or at least who co-ordinates the process is the Prison Unit Manager. When a new trans prisoner arrives (or an existing one self-ids as opposite gender), The Unit Manager makes the decision, based on self-declaration as to where to accommodate that prisoner, they then have 7 days to convene an initial gender reassignment case conference

(Doctor W states) : This is the gate-keeping process that weeds out the fakes and the dangerous ones.

My reading of the guidance suggests that the gender reassignment case conference is largely concerned with placing the trans person in the estate they wish for and, once in custody, receives treatment that accords with their extant rights under the 2004 GRA ie they should not discriminated against no matter where in the reassignment process they are, GRC or no GRC.

This bit of the Scottish policy (advice to the gender reassignment case conference) is telling:

A male-to-female person in custody living permanently as a woman without genital surgery should be allocated to a female establishment. She should not be automatically regarded as posing a high sexual offence risk to other people in custody and should not be subject to any automatic restrictions of her association with other people in custody.

However, if there is clear evidence that she, as an individual, may pose a sexual offence risk, then this should be dealt with as for any other person in custody posing a risk. Only where a risk assessment determines it is justified, should she be subject to increased staff supervision or restrictions of her association with other people in custody.

This statement and everything I have been reading over the last few days leads me to the following conclusions:

(1) The present prison system in Scotland supports self-identification and their policy actively supports placing self-declared MTF prisoners in the female estate.

(2) The case board system in Scotland is primarily there to protect the rights of the self-declared trans person in line with the rights they are accorded under the 2004 GRA

(3) When it comes to “weeding out” high risk prisoners, the issue of gender identification and custody risk are treated separately. The former does not override the latter. Thus even if the case boards were done away with, high risk MTF prisoners would “ be dealt with as for any other person in custody posing a risk”. To do otherwise could be considered to infringe the human rights of other prisoners.

(4) Given all of the above – any future change to the GRA that formalises self-declaration will, as far as I can see, broadly result in BUSINESS AS USUAL in the Scottish prison system.

DodoPatrol · 07/03/2018 13:16

I realise that some of those things can be disagreed with (I'm not saying 'Sam' IS a girl by wearing frills or skirts) but I'd like to stop all this awful obfuscation. 'Girl' is not an insult. 'Man' is not an insult. 'Trans', while it means different things to different people, is also not an insult.

DodoPatrol · 07/03/2018 13:13

Do you just want no self ID dodo or do you think other things are necessary?

Hmm, good question.
I think what I want, more than anything, is honesty and transparency - it should be possible to say:

'Boys are male, girls female.'
'Sam is a boy but transgender, so needs or prefers to wear typically feminine clothes, and shouldn't be laughed at for it.'
'Girls have periods.'
'No one's sex can change.'
'Some people feel so strongly about their bodies that they have plastic surgery to change them.'
'We allocate accommodation on gender grounds, which may therefore be mixed sex. If you or your child do not want this, we will make sure there is a single-sex option also available.'
'These employment statistics/crime statistics are broken down into male and female. This proportion of the respondents are male [or female] but identify as a different gender.'
'Lesbian and gay people are same-sex attracted and should not be pressured into relationships with the opposite sex.
'Our school uniform has a skirt or trousers option.'
'Our knitting club and chess club are open to both male and female students, but the lesbian society is open only to biological girls.'

Oops, sorry, went on a bit there.

RedToothBrush · 07/03/2018 11:32

Henry Wimbush @MrHenryWimbush
Transwomen are women. Lesbians are attracted to ladies with penis. Misgendering is literal violence. Biology is bigotry. No predator would ever lie in order to gain access to vulnerable. Sterilizing & mutilating children who don't conform to gender stereotypes is progressive.

This whole argument in one tweet.

Datun · 07/03/2018 11:29

Sanderz

Thanks for asking. It's not often I get asked my overall view.

I disagree with transgenderism as an ideology.

The definition of a woman is not a feeling in a man's head. And to suggest otherwise is, to me, antifeminist as it relies on re-enforcing gender stereotypes. Something that feminists have spent decades trying to dismantle.

That doesn't mean I don't understand that we are all working within a constructed, gendered system and that to people with gender dysphoria, presenting as the opposite sex alleviates their symptoms.

The parting of ways, for me, comes when instead of recognising that phenomenon, you endorse it.

So self identification, becomes a sort of uber endorsement of something that shouldn't be endorsed in the first place.

Gender dysphoria should be recognised as a reaction to a highly gendered society, which is damaging. It can be treated, accommodated, no problem.

What it can't be, is accepted as anthing other than a belief.

Sanderz · 07/03/2018 11:03

Do you just want no self ID dodo or do you think other things are necessary?

Sanderz · 07/03/2018 11:02

Oh absolutely dodo, of course. I was just curious as to what different people might want that's different from just no self ID.

DodoPatrol · 07/03/2018 10:58

That should have read 'as many viewpoints as there are people', not just women.

DodoPatrol · 07/03/2018 10:58

Sandrez, I should think there are as many viewpoints on here as there are women, surely? And some people started out by thinking 'no change, all working fairly well as it is' and then, on hearing about problems with the status quo, started to think 'Or actually, it looks like quite a lot that was beneficial to girls and women has already been lost -- how do we start to get it back?'

MrsOvarall · 07/03/2018 10:56

Cross posted Debbie.

MrsOvarall · 07/03/2018 10:54

YY Datun. TIM criminality remaining at male levels but an increase in TIF criminality means an increase in crime overall Confused Surely a cause for concern?

Debbie6666 · 07/03/2018 10:54

ChampiontheWonderHamster

The copies of the study i am reading do not support your claims for either group, but I will take a closer look later and come back and conceded the point if I find i am wrong.

It doesn't change my posts that were referenced to the information pages DoctorW linked to in order to back up her study though, Her links don't support her claims even if the underlying study might.

IllustriouslyIllogical · 07/03/2018 10:52

Mumsnet is a massively moderated censored site - if you want to read some real world comments go to Reddit, Pistonheads or any of a thousand other forums out there.

I come on here to keep a weather eye on opinion and to have a laugh at AIBU, if I want to say what I really think I use other sites.

Sanderz · 07/03/2018 10:51

@Datun I've seen your posts loads before and have a lot of respect for you. I don't always agree but you're very well informed and passionate. Quentin said on the last page that what people want is No change to the status quo. No to self ID. Do you agree with that? It just seems at odds with one of your posts -

It's all nonsense! We shouldn't even be debating mechanisms by which men may, or may not, get to serve their time in a female prison.

Gender dysphoria is a psychological condition giving a man the delusion that he is a woman.

And/or, it's a cross dressing fetish.

Neither of which should be afforded extra civil rights, ffs

I thought perhaps there are two different viewpoints on here rather than just one, so some people are just anti self ID, but some are anti the whole idea of transgenderism? Not in a nasty way, but just don't buy into it all (which I completely get). If that's right do you mind me asking what you personally want? Is it no change to the status quo or is it something different?

Sorry for the long post, thank you.

ChampiontheWonderHamster · 07/03/2018 10:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Debbie6666 · 07/03/2018 10:30

ChampiontheWonderHamster

I will have to go and have a re-read of it as today i was looking at the links provided by DoctorW's own study,

Either way I think its dishonest to represent data from a group from over 30 years ago where the subsequent group in the same study shows a different result and apply it to today's situation without acknowledging the subsequent group. Its rather selective in its approach and does not lend credibility to the study relying on it for support.

ATailofTwoKitties · 07/03/2018 10:08

It would be like me (shortarse) saying that I feel tall - how would I know what that feels like?

According to DH, it feels very like hitting your head on the doorframe at least once a week.

Datun · 07/03/2018 10:04

The increase in transmale criminality is interesting. I'd like to know more about that.

Yes, the same study did find that transmen have an increased pattern of criminality, not as high as men but higher than women.

What I find astonishing that trans advocates seem to think this shores up their argument, rather than underpinning yet another disadvantage of the ideology.

MrsOvarall · 07/03/2018 10:01

Debbie your analysis doesn't reassure me. So transwomen retain male pattern criminality after transition? Male criminality is sky high in comparison to female criminality.

The increase in transmale criminality is interesting. I'd like to know more about that.

Datun · 07/03/2018 10:00

Debbie6666 is treading a well worn path that they have trodden before.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3156818-M-S-changing-room-policy

In the interests of expediency, the other study (Californian) that has been done on trans prisoners has produced similar results.

""A similar observation has been published using official prison data and by interviewing transgender inmates in Californian prisons in the US. From a male prison population of approximately 130,000 men, a total of 298 TIMs were identified. Sixty-eight of these were sex offenders (20.5%). This was higher than the average rate of sex offenders in prison among all male inmates (14.6%). Similarly, the proportion of TIMs in maximum-security prisons (custody level 4) was higher than the average rate for all male prisoners (32.1 vs 22.8%)."

Links on fair play for women.

There is little studying being done about this, but one study that has been completed claims:

"The incidence of transvestism in sexual offenders, however, has been found to be very much higher. In a study of over 500 sex offenders, it was observed that over half exhibited transsexualism and/or cross-dressing as their primary paraphilia."

MrsOvarall · 07/03/2018 09:56

Rumple Feeling humiliated for not conforming to gender standards is unpleasant. No doubt about it. It doesn't pose the same threat as aggressive intimidation by adult men, though, surely? I would rather my GNC child's feelings be hurt if this is the choice.

Women and girls experience the kind of harassment that my DD did all the time. I have never witnessed a masculine or androgynous woman being challenged in a female space (but believe you that this sometimes happens). Seen hundreds of examples of males harassing females though.

I agree with you about gender and the UK. We should just get rid of sex stereotypes altogether.