If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

Yes, but it’s largely hysteria. I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison?

Men in Women's sports. It's definitely happening and it's not just women being 'hysterical'

I didn't say it doesn’t matter if womens rights in prison were being abused. Far from it. I mean that is the only real life scenario I have heard of (through a friend that works in the field) where men are possibly pretending to be trans to seek attention/try to get moved into a women’s prison/other weird underlying reasons that would suggest they are not truly trans. As far as I’m aware, social workers and psychologists are wise enough not to let a violent criminal with a penis into a women’s prison, so it’s not like their attempts at pretending will actually result in them being moved. If they have transitioned to the point where they have a vagina, I don’t see it would be a problem. There are also women in prison who abused other women you know? Bad people will always seek to do bad things.

I am all in favour of transmen and transwomen having the right to go about their life without harrassment and the threat of violence, without discrimination in housing and employment (barring a very few biologically based exceptions).

But I want some of my rights and those of other women legally protected.

I want to know that male-bodied rapists aren't going to be housed in women's prisons. I accept that it is not fair to leave genuine transwomen in the male estate, and will happily campaign for specific trans wings. But Davina Ayrton, Jessica Winfield, in women's prisons? No thanks.

I want to know that if I request a woman for my smear test, I will get a biologically female HCP. My body, my choice about who gets to touch my genitals. This doesn't in any way stop transwomen entering the medical professions - it just means there are a small number of areas where patients should have a veto.

I want rape crisis centres to be able to say "actually, because some women are likely to be understandably traumatised and triggered by male bodied individuals, we want to retain the right to employ/engage as volunteers on help lines and as peer counsellors only those women who are biologically female." I don't want to see the situation already seen in Canada where a transwoman sued a rape crisis centre to the brink of bankruptcy over the transwoman's alleged right to work with vulnerable sexual abuse victims.

I want women's sports to remain just that - women's sports, not women plus transwomen who are at a massive and unfair biological advantage because of their underlying male physiology. Lowering testosterone to 4 times the average female level while ignoring differences in height, VOmax, pelvis shape, etc. does not produce a level playing field.

I want protection for children from being allowed, before they are mature enough to realise what they are doing, to make life-altering decisions about drug regimes which may open them to major side effects and infertility. I want a world where all children know that they can play with whatever they want, wear whatever clothes they want, have whatever hair cut they want, without being bullied for it, and wanting short/long hair, wanting to play with dolls/football etc. does not mean they were "born in the wrong body."

I see these things as accepting that biology, actual physical sex, plays an important role in women's lives and can't be waved away. I understand that a lot of people see this as transphobia.

When history echos it is important to notice.
Men have been telling women that refusing them is an expression of hatred for a thousand years or more. That is what we are being told now.
Transphobia is the current euphemism for women refusing men, women saying no to men. Women refusing to set themselves on fire to keep men warm.

I hear you, midgebabe.

I think if the sexual abuse scandals of recent years - from care homes to Saville, to aid organisations - have taught us anything, it should have taught us that there are pretty much no lengths to which abusive men will not go in order to abuse, and there are no opportunities (however obscure to the ordinary person) which abusers will not spot and subsequently exploit, and no limit to the time and manoeuvring they will do in order to put themselves into a position in which they are able to exploit.

We know this. We can't unknown it. It's pointless acting as though we don't know it.

I'm very angry that I'm being asked to pretend - and then act as though - I don't know this.

Notwellbitch, each and every single example you've mentioned has happened with men not pretending to be trans. It changes fuck all what they are wearing, if they are going to do it they will.

Really? A man has obtained a place in a woman's shelter before and assaulted women? Why did more incidents happen after unisex facilities were introduced?

Taking away sex segregated spaces makes it easier for men to commit these crimes. No doubt some men who otherwise would not have the guts to enter a woman only space for fear of being challenged will feel empowered to simply walk in. They don't even need to wear women's clothing, simply say that they are one. It's not hysteria, it's happening

Bad men don't need excuses to do bad things. They will do them anyway. It's silly to think otherwise. If they want to walk into a public ladies loo and rape you they will they don't need to pretend to be a woman to do it. History shows us this. If they want to assault you at the swimming pool they will.

Difference being when they're (hopefully) put in prison it'll be a female one with plenty of other women for them to assault. Brilliant

Seems most people on here are using it as an excuse to attack trans people just for being trans.

Nope, they/we are attacking the potential if SELF ID comes in. Perhaps you could try reading one of the threads? We have trans people themselves coming on and supporting the exact same point.

Yes, but it’s largely hysteria. I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison? Seems most people on here are using it as an excuse to attack trans people just for being trans. Out of all the women’s issues in the world, I really don’t feel fake trans people pose a very great threat. Would be prepared to change my mind if my life experiences showed that I was indeed at threat, but I’ve not noticed it so far.

Then you aren't paying very much attention. Read any one of the threads. Genuinely read it with an open mind and you will find multiple examples of where this is happening, across the globe. Just because you haven't experienced it personally does not make it 'hysteria'.

Aghast at the “apart from perhaps in prisons” comment...
Like abuse doesn’t matter if you happen to be incarcerated (possibly even wrongly). Shocking.

It does worry me that people flash around the word transphobia so inappropriately.... there is real transphobia in the world, and that needs recognising and countering.... not diminishing by No Debate

Notwellbitch, each and every single example you've mentioned has happened with men not pretending to be trans. It changes fuck all what they are wearing, if they are going to do it they will.

So if you’ve never experienced it or met someone who has it’s not an issue.
I’m literally speechless at that I’m sorry. I know this site is anonymous but have you no feeling of embarrassment or shame at posting something so silly?

Yes I think it is but agree it's hysteria where a certain group feed off each other.

Bad men don't need excuses to do bad things. They will do them anyway. It's silly to think otherwise. If they want to walk into a public ladies loo and rape you they will they don't need to pretend to be a woman to do it. History shows us this. If they want to assault you at the swimming pool they will. Again history shows us this. Bad men will do it anyway. It's daft as fuck to thing the law is in some way going to give them more freedom to do it. Where there is a will there is a way

As such, I think hysteria about "bad men"is ridiculous. They are going to do what they are going to do. Labelling or gender won't change that. We all know it. So focus on the real issue. Or be accused of transphobia.

“Hysteria” and still this tired old word gets dredged up every time someone wants women silenced.
Get a new schtick. Bored of this one

Yes, but it’s largely hysteria. I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison?

Ah yes, silly hysterical women

Ok so off the top of my head - university of toronto unisex shower facilities had to he curtailed because of women being filmed. Target in the US had a rise in voyeurism incidents (including one by an actual trans woman) after their changing rooms went unisex. A man in Canada gained access to a women's shelter by claiming to be trans and sexually assaulted several women.

Add to it than stories from prisons that you seem to be aware of and I'm not sure how you can call it hysteria? Even if it was "just" in prisons, so what? How many vulnerable women need to be abused before you will acknowledge the problem?

What? I’m certainly not an insular person, I care very much about the world around me and other people. I meant as a feminist biological woman, who does normal woman things like use woman’s changing rooms, I don’t feel at threat from trans people and trans rights and I’ve never met any other woman IRL who does so Ive some to the conclusion that it’s largely a storm in a tea cup.

What do people saying they believe mumsnet is transphobic actually mean by transphobic?

Yes, but it’s largely hysteria. I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison?

Analysis following the change in target's bathroom/changing room policies
study

The thing is, for some reason, women are called hysterical for this concern, when just a quick google shows how many men do things like plant cameras in women's toilets/changing rooms, yet transwomen escape this accusation, their concerns for using the male toilets are accepted as valid.

If transwomen are women, why aren't they called hysterical for not wanting to use the male toilet, without evidence of this abuse? Why aren't they told to call the police if it happens?

It seems to me that the people who call women hysterical, but not transwomen are being transphobic - by their own rules, suggesting there's any difference is unacceptable.

Literally one of the most transphobic places on the internet

Is this like misgendering is literally killing trans people? AKA not at all?

Yes it seems there are precious few examples of this actually happening and plenty of examples of transphobia/abuse/the marginalisation of a vulnerable group. I'd prefer to be inclusive.

HOWEVER, some arguments on here I have found very enlightening.

Yes Little Lebowski. That seems to be the case on this subject.

“Would be prepared to change my mind if my life experiences showed that I was indeed at threat”
That is, if I may say so, a remarkably insular and self centred view of the world you appear to have there

Literally one of the most transphobic places on the internet. It's renowned for it, sadly.