If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

Transphobia on here is making me increasingly uneasy.

The persistent 'othering' of trans individuals, the fear mongering and default to worst case scenario dressed up as 'protecting' ourselves is reminiscent of prewar Nazi Germany or South African apartheid.

Against the wider backdrop of the rise of the far right, it's deeply worrying.

Views like this are always dismissed as not having read the arguments or be clever enough. And the loudest dominant voice wins out.

No platforming though they certainly aren’t a playground either!

When given the actual proof of men abusing unisex places to pervert on women - like the Target store changing rooms in the US, it’s interesting that the doubters never have a come back on that...

And people with the ‘I’m alright Jack’, ‘I’ve never been assaulted so I’ll not bother to take it seriously (or even believe her) when any other woman has’. Wtf is wrong with you? It’s ironic that you’re so preoccupied with being ‘right on’ about what is essentially men’s rights, that you couldn’t give a shit about women’s right to be safe but fuck women when there’s a man to please

It’s also hard as it’s seems genuine trans people might be being lumped in with the ‘fake’ trans, a largely mythical group

That ‘largely mythical group’ is well on its way to making my life hell. I have been essentially hounded out of online and rl political groups for being ‘Truscum’.

That mythical group is powerful enough to be lobbying government and schools. It’s trying to force changes through to laws. It’s assaulting the media leaving presenters and politicians terrified to actual speak biological reality.

That mythical group is no playground and silencing extremely knowledgable women right now.

They don’t seem very ‘mythical’ to me.

Taking away sex segregated spaces makes it easier for men to commit these crimes. No doubt some men who otherwise would not have the guts to enter a woman only space for fear of being challenged will feel empowered to simply walk in

This ^^. The group who will be most empowered by Self-ID are the blokes who currently lurk indoors with the curtains closed, trawling fetish websites. Why look at porn when you can wander down to your local swimming baths and go into the women's changing room to lurk behind the closed curtain of a cubicle watching real little girls? It might not be happening much in the UK now, but I am genuinely scared that it will if Self-ID becomes law.

I am not remotely scared, threatened, or 'filled with hate' towards transwomen.

can’t be arsed to waft through pages and pages of hate and yes, hysteria is the only word I can really think of to describe it. I do think there’s some serious debate to be had.

So there is a debate to be had but everyone but you is just hysterical and hateful

Have i got it?

I rarely contribute to these threads with regard to debating the issues, but even i can see that there are some very intelligent and serious posts which you appear to have missed because you cant be arsed to read the threads

People keep saying it won't happen while ignoring the fact that it is already happening.
50% of the trans identified males in the prison system are there for sex crimes. A few have been transferred to women's residence and have offended again and put in solitary or transferred back to men's facility.
So, the question is, how many women who failed to pay their TV tax are you willing to sacrifice to trans identified male sex offenders in the name of equality.
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." Anatole France

Bad men don't need excuses to do bad things. They will do them anyway. It's silly to think otherwise. If they want to walk into a public ladies loo and rape you they will they don't need to pretend to be a woman to do it. History shows us this. If they want to assault you at the swimming pool they will. Again history shows us this. Bad men will do it anyway. It's daft as fuck to thing the law is in some way going to give them more freedom to do it. Where there is a will there is a way

Well fine then, we don't need sex segregated space at all and trans peope aren't safer in women's toilets.

As far as I’m aware, social workers and psychologists are wise enough not to let a violent criminal with a penis into a women’s prison, so it’s not like their attempts at pretending will actually result in them being moved.

And yet it already has. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-39337805

I’m not suggesting this individual committed any crime other than the one they were convicted for. But is it really appropriate to put a biological male who is a convicted rapist into a women’s prison ?

There’s tons of transphobia here

And yet you’d think if that was true that one single poster would be able to link to one single bloody post that was transphobic.

I’ve been waiting for months.

I’ve never seen any.

And I’m quite sick of people waltzing on to this critical thinking oasis of a site for people like me and crying that it must be so offensive to trans people and oh won’t somebody think of the lady penis feelings. (And conveniently ignoring all the trans posters on here)

Link one. If you can’t then you are talking shite.

"apart from perhaps in prison"

??

I think this is a bit of an issue - many people don't have much concern for prisoners whether male or female. They have "lost their rights" when they committed the crime. Of course the massive difference in the types of crimes that men and women are incarcerated for, the difference in average is size / strength and the fact that if women engage in consensual relationships with intact men in prison / or are raped they can get pregnant is not really seen as too much of a worry (yet).

I think that while the assault is yeah whatever, very few people will be comfortable with women prisoners getting pregnant.
Although someone suggested they might be forced to have long acting birth control which might happen, this makes me really uncomfortable and angry TBH.

I think sports is the one that most people will care about.

Yes, but it’s largely hysteria. I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison?

Some of the most vulnerable women in the country are prisoners. MOstly non violent much more likely to have suffered DV than the rest of the population.

Explain why not paying your TV licence means you're suddenly less than a person?

Beyond giving a shit if someone calls me Transphobic. TRAs abuse TIMs, they tell them lies. Behaviour from TRAs leads me to believe they are happy to sterilise and gaslight children, TRAs are happy to abuse women and their boundaries. If fighting that makes me Transphobic, I could no care any less what a TRA calls me.

I’ve read a few of the millions of trans threads and swiftly jacked it in because I really can’t be arsed to waft through pages and pages of hate and yes, hysteria is the only word I can really think of to describe it. I do think there’s some serious debate to be had. I’m not in favour of people with penises being able to enter woman only spaces by law actually, but I think all the debate has simply become a war with one side trying to piss the other off as much as possible by writing offensive things on Twitter. It’s also hard as it’s seems genuine trans people might be being lumped in with the ‘fake’ trans, a largely mythical group.

But it’s the obsession. Pretty much every post! That’s what makes it feel transphobic because trans people are all anyone here seems to focus on.
There is a change in law that will dramatically affect millions of women and children all over the country. Women are talking about it because it is imminent. A current event. Under consideration now.
Criminy!

As far as I’m aware, social workers and psychologists are wise enough not to let a violent criminal with a penis into a women’s prison, so it’s not like their attempts at pretending will actually result in them being moved.

But self-ID would mean that any "violent criminal with a penis" can become legally female by spending a few mins filling in an online form.

Then social workers and psychologists will be unable to deny their move to a women's prison.

Self-ID means no more gatekeeping of legal gender change. It means no way to stop abusive men "pretending" to be trans because there's no difference any more: it's all on the individual's say-so.

That's why self-ID is so dangerous.

I have no issue with someone wanting to live their life in a way that makes them comfortable (within the law ofcourse).

I have reservations about the free for all that self ID could be for women.

men not pretending to be trans. It changes fuck all what they are wearing, if they are going to do it they will

The thing is. They won’t have to pretend. The potential is that anyone would able to walk gain access to a women’s safe space just by saying that they are trans. And you wont be able to challenge them.

A person doesn’t have to change their appearance in any way to be or to say that they are trans.

That’s exactly what people are upset about.

Bad men don't need excuses to do bad things. They will do them anyway.
A common error. In truth most crime is opportunistic as are most criminals. Which is why we have separate facilities for women in various states of undress.

Rumple that's precisely why we are all campaigning. It is not transpeople that worry us - it is the proposed move to self ID. You say social workers and psychologists are wise to it and won't allow chancers to be moved. Yes, absolutely, 100% . And that is precisely how the current GRA works - it has gatekeeping. Remove that and replace it with self ID and the rapist's say-so becomes the only legal criterion. They say they are a woman, therefore they are a woman, therefore there are no legal grounds on which to oppose them being moved to the women's estate. That's how self ID will work.

I think MN is NOT transphobic.

I have been around a few years and what I do see is a lot of intelligent posters showing real concern at the earasure of female spaces and boundaries. The same posters are very quick to shout down any transphobic comments and encourage using the report button.

I do see alot of attempts at silencing those who are gender criticle by throwing the terms transphobic and terf on to every thread about trans issues.

MN has educated me and introduced me to some amazing people whos only agenda is protecting women and children.
I can not see why that is a bad thing.

There’s tons of transphobia here. And every time someone says that they get shut down for it. It’s hinestly ridiculous sometimes. The thing is, I absolutely agree that there may be some concerns: I believe women should be able to request having a biological woman as their doctor/nurse etc when necessary, for example. But it’s the obsession. Pretty much every post! That’s what makes it feel transphobic because trans people are all anyone here seems to focus on. It’s difficult to have a talk about intersectionality because it turns into another argument filled with hatred against trans people, at the exclusion of woc and other women. I’m also concerned about the way it’s pushing people, such as Jordan Peterson being transphobic has garnered him support but he’s alt-right ffs.

I think people on mumsnet are angry and fed up with the whole thing, while quite often although they may not intend to be 'transphobic' the immediate response to anything trans related and the way posts are worded come across that way.
When I first joined mn I was fairly uneducated on the issues and from just asking questions I got a few really nasty and personal attacks in response and it turned me back the other way and took a long time for me to understand what they meant and where they were comming from.

As such, I think hysteria about "bad men"is ridiculous. They are going to do what they are going to do. Labelling or gender won't change that. We all know it.

Actually, I don’t think we “all know it.” I know I have concerns about your assumption.

Did you read the studies upthread? It seems to me that given more opportunity, bad men will take advantage of it. The more it occurs and is “normalised” (often on the internet) the more it is seen as either “acceptable” or “something that visibly goes unpunished and can be done with impunity.” So those who were previously unsure are more likely to act.

I don’t believe these thing happen in isolation. Yes, there may be some men who are genuinely awful and would act that way. But how many times do men do things egged on by peer pressure?

Do you really believe that no man in the US heard Donald Trump talk and thought, “Hey, if the president does it...”